From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #297
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume00/297
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain
blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 297
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Re:Avon as loner [ Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones. ]
Re: [B7L] Re:suspension of disbelief [ Susan Beth <susanbeth33@mindspring. ]
[B7L] That Jacket again (was Avon as [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
[B7L] Re: Bookworms [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
Re: [B7L] Re:suspension of disbelief [ Susan Beth <susanbeth33@mindspring. ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
[B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
[B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwa [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
[B7L] Re: Avon as loner [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@wor ]
Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Dea [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
[B7L] Richard III and all that [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
[B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Dea [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
[B7L] That Jacket again (was Avon as [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
[B7L] Re: Bookworms [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? [ Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.a ]
[B7L] B7 articles in SF magazines, B [ Bizarro7@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for [ "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect. ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:52:41 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon as loner
Message-ID: <4kU5AVAJgX95EwBc@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <39F4ED41.5FBE@jps.net>, Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
writes
>Important emphasis on filling time *with people*. If you don't want
>people, you fill time by sitting in your room with an apple, reading a
>nice tech manual or Nietzche's poetry. Then turn on some music and do
>excercises. He chose to sit with the others and play meaningless games
>and listen to their chat. Ergo, he is not acting like a loner.
As an example from real life - one of my friends at university was
another bookworm who was happy to sit and read in company. We frequently
spent an afternoon sitting in her room reading our way through the
section of the SF society's library that lived on her cupboard (she was
the A-C librarian), with no more conversation than "your turn to make
the tea". Our other friends were both bemused and amused by this, since
our answer to the question "why?" was "it's much nicer to have company".
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:43:30 -0400
From: Susan Beth <susanbeth33@mindspring.com>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:suspension of disbelief
Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.20001023174330.00741990@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Betty Ragan wrote:
>Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>
>> When Tanith Lee writes? Mind, I liked Sarcophagas in some ways, but...
>> the avatars business was too wierd for me. I don't mind discussing them
>> as theoretical avatars, i.e. Vila as the Artful Dodger-type. Seeing
>> 'real' avatars of them, like they are reincarnations of her slavies,
>> really stuck in my throat. I don't mind reincarnation per se, but
>> granting it as a possibility, they are all on the same ship and find
>> her? Too much.
>
>Oh, I didn't see "Sarcophagus" as suggesting that at *all*. More that
>she was forcing them into those roles (which, admittedly, they just
>happened to be well suited for...).
And *I* saw the earlier figures as phantasm, conjured up *predictions* of
what she would meet up with when revived, so there's no coincidence or
forcing required on the part of the real crew. ;-)
That's B7 for you: every bit can be interpreted in at least a dozen ways...
Susan Beth (susanbeth33@mindspring.com)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:47:24 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] That Jacket again (was Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <F191GNsokLQ8aZRhQdO000001b2@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
><gurgle> well they do say part of the appeal of shoulder pads is that they
>tend to draw the eyes up and make the waist look slimmer ...
Depends on whether you think he's silly enough to want to look like a
gridiron player. That boy's got a strange sense of humour but I don't think
it's quite that strange.
Regards
Joanne
(Fragment to the tune of Yesterday, for Sally and Harriet:
Jarriere,
Though I wouldn't call you debonaire,
I'm quite happy to just sit and stare
When e'er I see you, Jarriere)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: 24 Oct 00 14:49:22 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Bookworms
Message-ID: <20001024214922.11679.qmail@www0v.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So what books would the B7 group read: I can see Avon reading Marcus Aure=
lius
(Meditations) - ie stoicism: would Blake read the Communist Manifesto? =
Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk> wrote:
As an example from real life - one of my friends at university was
another bookworm who was happy to sit and read in company. We frequently
spent an afternoon sitting in her room reading our way through the
section of the SF society's library that lived on her cupboard (she was
the A-C librarian), with no more conversation than "your turn to make
the tea". Our other friends were both bemused and amused by this, since
our answer to the question "why?" was "it's much nicer to have company".
-- =
Julia Jones
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:45:30 -0400
From: Susan Beth <susanbeth33@mindspring.com>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:suspension of disbelief
Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.20001023174530.00741dc4@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>The "avatars" were merely a vision of the future; assurance that the
Ooops. Should have finished reading all the posts before I posted. Anyway,
What She Said.
Susan Beth (susanbeth33@mindspring.com)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:59:48 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <39F60654.48E5D972@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carol Mc wrote:
> Avon wasn't a dysfunctional human being; he was a very normal introvert.
Now, me, I think he *was* dysfunctional in certain ways, and to a
certain extent (more so as time went on and his circumstances got worse
and worse), but I think that's independent of his introversion. Well,
OK, not *totally* independent, as personality traits inevitably all
interact in very complex ways. But I'd be the last person to suggest
that there must be something wrong with someone simply because he gets
irritated by other people. There's a very good reason why I live
alone...
But, you know, I can't imagine Avon would actually *appreciate* being
called "normal." :)
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as
the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to
the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:05:13 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ...
Message-ID: <20001024.180549.-89959.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:32:03 -0600 Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> writes:
> Sally Manton wrote:
>
> > A question. Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of
> dreadful,
> > wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't*
> see Our
> > Heroes visiting?
>
> I like the idea of him collecting snow globes, personally...
>
Lava lamps, smiley stickers, and Smurfs.
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:37:37 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <e1.b55087b.27278551@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Betty wrote:
> But, you know, I can't imagine Avon would actually *appreciate* being
> called "normal." :)
He wouldn't. <eg> But as Tarrant told Vila (recently quoted by Shirley on
the other list), you can't always get what you want.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:01:18 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long)
Message-ID: <39F630DE.496D66B0@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I wrote:
> Now, me, I think he *was* dysfunctional in certain ways, and to a
> certain extent (more so as time went on and his circumstances got worse
> and worse). . . .
It may be a bit silly, responding to one's own post, but I have the
distinct premonition that someone is going to challenge me on this one
and ask just exactly how and why and in what circumstances I think Avon
is "dysfunctional." So I went and had a little think about the subject,
and I figured I'd step forward with the answer before anybody actually
asks the question. :)
The thing is, IMHO "Is Avon dysfunctional?" is a really slippery
question. First of all, you have to consider just what the word
*means*. The way I see it, "dysfunctional" means pretty much exactly
what it sounds like it means: not able to function properly. So someone
who is dysfunctional has behaviors and/or attitudes and/or emotional
responses that prevent them from functioning properly in their
environment.
Now, there are two problems here, I think, quite apart from the usual
problem of how you interpret what's on the screen. First is the
question of exactly how you define "functioning properly." Who gets to
define just what proper, functional human behavior consists of? For
instance, I think that it's fairly reasonable to make the argument that
Avon's relationships with people are, in general, dysfunctional. He
insults people, verbally abuses them, and generally behaves in ways that
tend to be very alienating. Not the way to built healthy, happy
relationships, right? Not a good way to act around the people that you
have to live and work with. Right? Dysfunctional. *Except*... Except
that Avon, I'm sure would (if he deigned to reply seriously at all)
respond that he's not particularly interested in building good
relationships with most people, and that if they can't take his
particular style of interaction (and, perhaps, if they're not able to
give as good as they get in Avon's verbal battles) they're not really
worth his time, anyway. Now, you can debate about how *desireable* that
attitude is, but it certainly doesn't seem to me to be *pathological*.
And whether it's dysfunctional or not depends on just what kind of
function you have in mind.
The second problem is that what constitutes "functioning properly"
depends a *lot* on the situation. When we call someone dysfunctional, I
think, it's generally with some comaprison in mind to the behavior of
normal, healthy, well-adjusted people in normal, day-to-day
circumstances. A person who breaks down into tears in the street for no
good reason is behaving dysfunctionally. A person who breaks down into
tears in the street the day after their mother died is exhibiting
perfectly normal, understandable behavior. Context is everything. The
problem is, we don't see Avon in anything remotely approaching normal,
day-to-day circumstances, *ever*. Life on the Liberator (or the
Scorpio, or, for that matter, the London) is anything but normal. And,
frankly, considering the kinds of things he's been through, if Avon
didn't have any difficulties coping whatsoever, *that* would not be
normal!
So, is Avon dysfunctional? IMHO the answer is "yes," but since you have
to keep all of the above in mind, it's a very qualified "yes." IMO Avon
*does*, sometimes, behave in ways that are inappropriate, maladaptive,
unhealthy... in short, dysfunctional.
Examples? Certainly! How about "Terminal"? Anybody wanna argue that
locking himself onto the flight deck without sleep, keeping the others
in the dark about what he was doing, pulling a gun on Tarrant, etc. was
adaptive, healthy, appropriate behavior? Then there's "Rumours." This
is a man who is so consumed by the desire for revenge (probably, IMO,
motivated by guilt) that he voluntarily undergoes five days of torture
(and, not incidentally, considerably risk to his life) for a woman who,
already being dead, is not in any way going to benefit from it. That,
to my mind, *is* pathological. And, yes, there's "Blake." Were there
rational reasons to believe that Blake possibly *had* betrayed them?
Sure. But pulling the trigger was definitely *not* the appropriate
thing to do. It was a violent emotional reaction, and by no means a
healthy one.
I can think of other examples, too, but they're all either much less
serious, or much more open to interpretation, or both. (For instance,
IMHO he exhibits some serious mood swings, particularly in the fourth
season, that make him unpredictable to deal with in ways that I don't
think are good for him or anybody else. But I realize that that's very
much debatable, on several counts.)
So, anyway, that's what I mean what I say that I think Avon *is*
dysfunctional in certain ways, to a certain extent. Just thought I'd
clarify.:)
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:58:24 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwatch
Message-ID: <39F63030.35DD@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >This also nicely explains him putting on that Matador jacket - when you're
> >feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what >you're doing
> >first thing in the morning.
> >(PS - Joanne, Mistral, does this let him off the hook?)
>
Joanne> No. Most human beings would go for a habitual favourite wardrobe
item, or
> something cuddly and comfortable they didn't have to worry about. Haven't
> had breakfast yet, so I've still time to believe that leather and studs is
> cuddly and comfortable.
It may have a nice lining. Besides, I may go for flamboyant clothing
when I feel 'bleah' to try to force myself into feeling better.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:07:37 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon as loner
Message-ID: <39F63259.7AB0@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Wasn't me who said that, either, although I am (as usual) more inclined
> to agree with Sally than with Carol. I *do* agree with whoever (was it
> Marian?) said that he's a natural introvert. And, speaking as another
> natural introvert, I'd be quite surprised if he *didn't* feel a periodic
> need to get away from the others for a while.
Urk! I started this thread and I'm beginning to see where the arguement
lies. I never claimed he wasn't always introverted. But there is healthy
introversion, wanting only occaisional companionship vs. an attempt at
complete emotional isolation. I suggested the events in Terminal/4th
season may have shown a change from being an introvert who spoke of
himself as isolated to actively trying to isolate himself.
{In retrospect, I don't think he changed and became a 'Dorian' (willing
to kill people as a matter of convienience)-- that was what started this
thread, after all.}
Anyhow, intorvert, yes; isolated (true loner), no.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:27:42 -0400
From: "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <008701c03e2c$88b329a0$0bf35a0c@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: <Mac4781@aol.com>
> In ANIMALS Dayna tells Justin, "We've got a base, we're gathering
equipment
> and we're looking for allies. We're also trying to recruit experts...
> specialists in relevant fields."
>
> Unfortunately their attempts at alliances (VOLCANO and WARLORD) both
resulted
> in betrayals. Which doesn't bode well for the alliance method actually
> working.
I just recently rewatched "Stardrive" (hey, I'm making progress in my
Grand Rewatching!) and realized that in the fourth season Avon et al. were
pretty much single-handedly responsible for the decimation of the
independent 'specialist' corps in their area. I mean, how many people end
up dead after an attempted recruitment? Several, anyway. Avon really
should've grabbed that rabbit's foot from Blake before sending him off the
deck in "Star One"...
--Katie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:20:53 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwatch
Message-ID: <20001024.230439.-409563.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:58:24 -0700 Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
writes:
> > >feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what
> >you're doing
> > >first thing in the morning.
> >
> Joanne> No. Most human beings would go for a habitual favourite
> wardrobe
> item, or
> > something cuddly and comfortable
Speaking for myself, I have this one item in my wardrobe that hasn't been
in style for a decade or three that I only get out when I'm feeling
really lousy (or when the heater is having problems). It's also one of
the loudest color patterns I own.
Haven't worn it in public though since I got it.
Maybe Avon didn't want to admit the light was out in his room when he had
to get dressed in a hurry? Or maybe Orac decided to go all oracular
again and tell him, for undisclosed reasons, his survival odds went up
dramatically if he wore it (as things heated up between the two rival
planets, no one mistook him for a native of the other place. And the
sight of it obviously effected Servalan's thinking enough that she didn't
come up with an effective plan for stopping Avon's interference).
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:54:53 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long)
Message-ID: <20001024.230439.-409563.1.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'd say Avon was a tad dysfunctional since I see his efforts to limit any
warm and fuzzy feelings in his vicinity as having a majorly defensive
edge. That is, he goes to great lengths to discourage people in liking
him and equally great lengths to discourage them in thinking he likes (or
could like) them. However, when push comes to shove, he often goes to
even greater lengths to protect these same people - and then denies
having any motive other than blunt practicality. He also, IMHO, is
making these denials not only to them but to himself.
So, Avon (IMHO) has two mutually exclusive goals. 1) He wishes to avoid
emotional connections to others, but 2) He puts great value on the
connections he has. I also see him as being in denial about the
conflict.
Add to this some of his statements about things like sentiment, ("Let it
get ahold of you and you are dead") and it seems arguable he's doing this
as a defense mechanism - he sees these connections as weaknesses, either
vulnerabilities he can be attacked through or things that effect his
ability to survive and prosper.
Because I see him as being in denial about his failure to protect himself
on this front, I obviously think there's one King Kong sized emotional
load behind that denial. JMHO.
In a connected way, I was thinking of various things in Avonish stories
(fanfic stuff again), and I have to admit one point. I don't like to
admit this, but there's another problem I see him as having. In the
dating department, I see Avon as far more likely to enter into a
relationship he could initially define as 'casual' and then claim any
loyalties or obligations as an after the fact type of thing. Example:
he'd been rather close with Anna for (I would guess) quite some time
before admitting he actually _trusted_ her. In RoD, Avon doesn't tell
Shrinker he loved Anna - that's left to other people. He could even
argue, if he wanted, that he would do the same for a woman who meant
practically nothing to him, that killing his lover was an affront to
_him_. As he said, he made the promise to _himself_ (not that I would
buy that argument, but so long as he's happy with it....). He might
enter into a marriage after from some kind of 'practical concerns,' but I
must regretfully admit I don't see him going into things like that first.
Given the way things were in the Federation, he might also enter into
marriage from a practical point of view (probably meaning money and/or
power). Or if he saw it as necessary to his long term survival
(although, depending on how the offer was made, I could see him chosing
death first just to make a point).
Which brings up inevitable problems when that runs smack into plotting
needs.
Just mentioning it.
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:04:38 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Richard III and all that
Message-ID: <20001024.230439.-409563.2.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Well, yes, I've always wondered if Richard weren't innocent. The
evidence couldn't get a conviction these days, all defense statements are
lost to history, and I don't trust official evidence revealed 20 years
after the fact (and after the rather private execution).
Although he did have motive and opportunity. So did others, but he
really had the most of both.
OTOH, I do like that painting and he wasn't as execution happy as some
parties I could name.
I understand the character Paul Darrow played in a certain Dr. Who
episode has been compared to Richard.
And Richard did marry and Anne (well, it's _close_ to Anna).
One wonders what Shakespeare would have done with Avon, especially if he
knew he had to take Servalan being queen into account. . . .
Other trivia: Just realized for the first time the pun in Tarrant's name.
D. Tarrant. Don't tell me they didn't plan that.
Oh, and I thought Tarrant for Thor because Tarrant (I think) means
thunder.
More trivia: Soolin in Warlord. I think Tarrant's crush on Pinkie... uh,
Zeeona, must have reminded her of some event in her past, like maybe
Zeeona reminded her of her sister or something who wouldn't have been
there for the massacre if Dad had let her go out on that date (OK, I
haven't found a _good_ reason yet, I'm working on it).
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 06:58:52 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <LAW-F932aPUXkr707Bs00000604@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Carol wrote:
<Avon wasn't a dysfunctional human being; he was a very normal
introvert.>
Well imperfectly introvert ... with some decided (and fairly blatant)
extrovert qualities.
And Betty:
<But, you know, I can't imagine Avon would actually *appreciate* being
called "normal." :)>
One thing we must all remember - what is - in our relatively safe and
secure little Western society - 'normal' would probably count as
decidedly not normal in a society like theirs. Which begs the question
- given such sketchy evidence as we have, what *would* count as normal
the Federation? Servalan or Alta Morag? Dev Tarrant? Bercol and
Rontane? Parr? Keillor?!? Dr Bellfriar ... maybe, but he basically
ran and found himself a faux-ivory tower ...
And Ellynne:
<In RoD, Avon doesn't tell Shrinker he loved Anna - that's left to
other people.
Also remember what he said *to* Anna ...
ANNA: Why do I never know what you're thinking, Avon?
AVON: I could never say it.
ANNA: Not even to me?
AVON: Especially not to you.
Which makes romantic (or even platonically emotional, as *almost* mandatory
in angsty stories) dialogue a right bitch to get to work ...
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:00:29 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <LAW-F112Wgtc2S6AATi000005a4@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Katie wrote:
<I just recently rewatched "Stardrive" (hey, I'm making progress in my
Grand Rewatching!)>
- which means you get Animals next, lucky you ... :-)
<and realized that in the fourth season Avon et al. were pretty much
single-handedly responsible for the decimation of the independent
'specialist' corps in their area. I mean, how many people end up dead
after an attempted recruitment?>
And it doesn't stop there ... <veg> our own little Angels of Death,
aren't they? Personally, were I a 4th-season Mary Sue, I'd run a
light year at the first glint of the studs *or* the teeth ...
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:03:45 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwatch
Message-ID: <LAW-F197reBBsQwY6YH000005ce@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Ellynne writes:
<Speaking for myself, I have this one item in my wardrobe that hasn't
been in style for a decade or three that I only get out when I'm
feeling really lousy (or when the heater is having problems). It's
also one of the loudest color patterns I own.>
The immediate mental picture of Avon in a tatty, faded old dressing gown
(which HAS to be flannel, of course) and slippers with the toes worn right
through is certainly different :-) Though personally I see Blake as more the
type to hang onto ancient and disreputable old clothing, long after everyone
else thinks that the laser burns and badly mended helium-flux-shredder-thing
rips (well, can *you* see him darning? Or anyone on the ship offering to do
it for him?) have put it past the pale.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:32:52 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] That Jacket again (was Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <LAW-F232pH71yEXUIEA000006cb@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Joanne wrote:
<(Fragment to the tune of Yesterday, for Sally and Harriet: ...>
Oh Joanne that's so ... so ... *him* ...
<sniff>
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:33:39 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Bookworms
Message-ID: <LAW-F220t3cew8k69RK000006bb@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Jacqui asks:
<So what books would the B7 group read:>
Avon - Ambrose Bierce (both the Devil's Dictionary and the Civil War
stories.) The Name of the Rose. Alexander Pope (that is, of anyone as
inspiringly vitriolic as Pope wasn't banned :-)).
Blake - social and/or military history (I also think with his curiosity
about people, he'd share my own love of reading published letters and
diaries <g>). Steinbeck.
Vilakins - urrk. Not much of a reader, but I think he'd enjoy the 'Flashman'
books (in audio, if possible) ...
Gan - Dickens. Definitely Dickens.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:49:59 +0200
From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner?
Message-Id: <200010251049.MAA02780@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Carol Mc wrote:
>As I've said before, I think part of the conflict between Avon and Blake was
>the extreme differences in their personality types. Blake wouldn't mean to
>discomfort Avon, but his personality is so overwhelming it would be very
>difficult for an introvert to cope with that in close quarters over a long
>period of time. There was also an indication that Avon inadvertently hurt
>Blake--because introverts don't understand how cold and uncaring they can
>appear to extroverts--which is why Blake responded with the hurt comment
>about Avon really hating him in STAR ONE.
>
>I also think the sensitivity that built up during seasons one and two led to
>Avon's quick trigger finger in BLAKE. Whether he realized it or not, Avon's
>body was probably tensing in anticipation of another "dose" of Blake from the
>moment he decided to go to Gauda Prime.
>
You made me think...
There is a scene in 'Cygnus Alpha', when Avon has just discovered the
Liberator gun and he points it at Blake and Blake walks nonchalantly towards
him as if nothing were wrong. It is almost echoed on Gauda Prime, Blake
probably thinking 'It's just Avon pointing his gun at me, I can handle it.'
This could even be the paradigm of their relationship: on numerous occasions
Blake places his life or his safety in Avon's hands, and Avon has plenty of
opportunities to kill him or betray him, which he never does. In the 'Cygnus
Alpha' scene Blake, who can really think quickly when in danger, probably
reasons: Jenna is on my side, and even though we are not armed, the two of
us could probably overpower Avon and dump him into deep space. Still, this
is not what he does. Instead he says to Avon, 'You are a free man', in other
words, I'm giving you the freedom of choice, I let your conscience decide.
And this becomes a pattern between the two of them. On the one hand, Blake
forces Avon to do things much against his grain - to be an idealist, to
fight a revolution, to risk his neck for the rabble. On the other, he
constantly places Avon in situations where he could easily set himself free,
if only his conscience (or his feelings for Blake?) would allow it. Avon is
held captive of Blake's idealism, but it is a deal in which Blake pawns his
own head. Killing Blake is a kind of 'objective correlative' for the moral
downfall Avon is always tempted to undertake. In other words, Blake seems to
say, 'If you want to quit, you'll have to walk over my dead body.'
Which he eventually does.
N.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:45:40 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, freedom-city@blakes-7.org
Subject: [B7L] B7 articles in SF magazines, B7 Fanzines
Message-ID: <e0.b6b93f7.272821e4@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
A whole mess of new B7-related listings have just gone up at the Ashton Press
eBay auction page. If you've been searching for SF magazines that contain B7
articles and photos and some classic old, out-of-print fanzines from both B7
and many other fandoms, we've currently got a large number of items up with
very low opening bid prices. Have a look and enjoy, even if you choose not to
bid. Good luck!
<A HREF="http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/ashton7/">eBay View About Me for
ashton7</A> (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/ashton7/)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:04:40 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ...
Message-ID: <009101c03e8c$9275a160$ec099ad8@cgorman>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ellynne G. wrote
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:32:03 -0600 Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> writes:
> > Sally Manton wrote:
> >
> > > A question. Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of
> > dreadful,
> > > wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't*
> > see Our
> > > Heroes visiting?
> >
> > I like the idea of him collecting snow globes, personally...
> >
> Lava lamps, smiley stickers, and Smurfs.
Maybe he'd go for bumper stickers for the Liberator. "Freedom Fighters do
it with a gun under their pillow", or "My other ship is a clapped out planet
hopper".
Steve D.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:15:57 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long)
Message-ID: <a6.b16c8c8.2728451d@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Betty wrote:
> It may be a bit silly, responding to one's own post, but I have the
> distinct premonition that someone is going to challenge me on this one
> and ask just exactly how and why and in what circumstances I think Avon
> is "dysfunctional."
<g> Actually, the reason I didn't respond was because there was nothing
specific to grab hold of, and I couldn't see of the point of an "I think he's
dysfunctional" - "I don't think he is" exchange. But now that you've given
me some points to respond to, it becomes interesting. I pondered your points
during my morning tramp through the fog.
> The way I see it, "dysfunctional" means pretty much exactly
> what it sounds like it means: not able to function properly.
That seems to be a good basis for the discussion no matter what one's
personal definition of dysfunctional is.
> So someone
> who is dysfunctional has behaviors and/or attitudes and/or emotional
> responses that prevent them from functioning properly in their
> environment.
The environment is, I think, an important consideration. Because many (all?)
of the B7ers behave in ways that would be considered inappropriate per our
society. But the B7 universe is much darker.
> For
> instance, I think that it's fairly reasonable to make the argument that
> Avon's relationships with people are, in general, dysfunctional.
I have to admit to being completely blind to his relationships as
dysfunctional. Probably because I can see myself behaving exactly as he did.
> He
> insults people, verbally abuses them, and generally behaves in ways that
> tend to be very alienating. Not the way to built healthy, happy
> relationships, right?
You've already answered this for me. Avon doesn't want healthy, happy
relationships. His pushing people away is planned and calculated in a way to
make *his* life *happier.* He doesn't want ties. Is it abnormal not to
want the responsibility that comes with close relationships? Not to my way
of thinking. It's work to maintain close relationships. Avon recognizes
that some aspects of life are much easier if you are an emotional loner. He
doesn't want to have to depend on other people; he doesn't want other people
to depend on him. If you can actually achieve perfect distancing from
everyone else--and I don't think anyone except a hermit who never has contact
with anyone else can totally manage that--then you always know exactly where
you stand. You know how your energies and time will be committed. It
honestly sounds very attractive to me.
But, back to Avon. His attempts to push people away, to alienate them, don't
succeed. Poor baybee. And he shows that he can interact with them, come to
care for them, etc. Which suggests normal to me.
> Life on the Liberator (or the
> Scorpio, or, for that matter, the London) is anything but normal. And,
> frankly, considering the kinds of things he's been through, if Avon
> didn't have any difficulties coping whatsoever, *that* would not be
> normal!
Exactly. He's living under a lot of pressure. That he does cope so well is
one of the reasons I don't see him as dysfunctional.
> Examples? Certainly! How about "Terminal"? Anybody wanna argue that
> locking himself onto the flight deck without sleep, keeping the others
> in the dark about what he was doing, pulling a gun on Tarrant, etc. was
> adaptive, healthy, appropriate behavior?
This is one of those circumstances of environment. Avon is faced with a
near-impossible problem. He can't in good conscience leave Blake to a
possibly ugly fate, and he won't in good conscience involve his shipmates in
something that he believes to be trap. Now I don't know about you, but when
I'm mentally agitated, I don't sleep well. In Avon's situation, I wouldn't
be able to sleep.
Keeping the others in the dark is reasonable if his goal was to protect them,
which is how I see it. If he tells them, they are going to insist on helping
him. He doesn't want to put them in danger. It's an indication of how much
all of them have come to mean to him. Another sign of someone who is
functioning normally and who is able to relate to other people to my way of
thinking.
Point three, pulling the gun on Tarrant. The man has been without sleep; he
sees verbal arguments aren't getting him anywhere; he pulls a gun. It's the
same type of frustrating circumstance that caused Tarrant to pull a gun on
Vila in MOLOCH. Dysfunctional or desperate? I'd rate the gun pulling as the
latter. Sure, there are other possibilities in both instances, but we all
have moments where we go for the quick fix over trying to figure out how else
we might handle the situation. I don't expect Avon (or Tarrant) to be
perfect.
> Then there's "Rumours." This
> is a man who is so consumed by the desire for revenge (probably, IMO,
> motivated by guilt) that he voluntarily undergoes five days of torture
> (and, not incidentally, considerably risk to his life) for a woman who,
> already being dead, is not in any way going to benefit from it. That,
> to my mind, *is* pathological.
I pondered that one especially while I walked, and I didn't come up with
pathological. If someone I loved had been tortured and killed and if the
only way to bring the one responsible to justice was to undergo five days of
severe pain and to risk my life, would I do it? Yes. Without a doubt.
Five days of pain is an eye blink of discomfort compared to a lifetime of
mental anguish. The risk to life preferable to long years of living with the
knowledge that someone who had tortured and killed a loved one was going
unpunished.
I was reminded of the character that Sally Field played in "An Eye for an
Eye." Was her character pathological or would many of us have wanted to do
the same thing (though we may not have had the will to carry it out) in that
same situation?
> And, yes, there's "Blake." Were there
> rational reasons to believe that Blake possibly *had* betrayed them?
> Sure. But pulling the trigger was definitely *not* the appropriate
> thing to do. It was a violent emotional reaction, and by no means a
> healthy one.
Not healthy by our standards. But in Avon's situation? He's a wanted
fugitive. He's in the midst of enemy territory. Security has been called.
He's already asked Blake if he betrayed him. And received an answer that he
took to be yes. What else would you have him do? Ask more questions? Tell
Blake he never wants to see him again? Avon is a soldier on a battlefield.
He's identified the enemy. He shoots.
What's of more interest to me in "Blake" is that Avon so easily believed that
Blake could betray him. And it always comes back to their personality
conflict and to Avon's view of Blake. Avon saw that Blake's rebellion was
corrupting Blake. Blake reached the point that had him willing to wade in
blood to win. I can see where Avon could believe that the corruption went
one step farther.
> So, anyway, that's what I mean what I say that I think Avon *is*
> dysfunctional in certain ways, to a certain extent. Just thought I'd
> clarify.:)
Which I very much appreciate. It prompted me to think more deeply about
Avon's behavior and why he acted as he did.
Carol Mc
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #297
**************************************