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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 299
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
[B7L] Re:if Shakespeare wrote Blake' [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
[B7L] Re: bookworms [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
[B7L] Avon and Marriage [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Dea [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
[B7L] Call for information [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@wor ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? [ "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@wor ]
Re: [B7L] Richard III and all that [ Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.a ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect. ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:43:28 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <39F79A50.AF9224E4@sdc.org>
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Carol Mc wrote:
> I should not have come to the computer. Now it will be difficult to get
> away.
I do so know the feeling. :)
> He says nasty things, but at the same time he tends to make himself useful
> and to *do* the right thing or allow himself to be persuaded to do the right
> thing. The reaction of his shipmates shows that he isn't engaged in risky
> behavior. If you are useful enough, people will tolerate behavior that is
> more obnoxious than Avon displays. I suspect Avon learned that long before
> he reached the Liberator. :)
I'd say, however, that he's very lucky to have found himself among
people who *are* willing to tolerate him. I'm sure I know people who
would have sold him to the Federation or tossed him out the airlock (or
at the very least, dumped him off on some godforsaken planet) just for
being so arrogant and obnoxious, computer skills or no computer skills.
> Then we have STARDRIVE when Avon says even the most cynical must sometimes
> trust to luck. IOW, even Avon is capable of seemingly irrational behavior.
> If one regards his fiery tongue to be irrational.
Oh, I firmly agree that Avon is capable of irrational behavior. I think
that's partly what I've been saying here, actually. :)
> I think Avon might be more the norm than the exception in the
> Federation universe, particularly for those outside the law. We see more
> avoiding emotional connections than seeking emotional connections.
Yeah, the B7 universe it a pretty dysfunctional place (as well as being
dystopian).
> Vila
> doesn't commit to Kerril. Zeeona is the *one* to chase Tarrant. Blake can't
> discuss his distress over Gan with his shipmates. Tarrant watches his
> brother get killed and he smiles and makes a joke about it. They are almost
> all emotional loners.
Oh, definitely. I *never* claimed Avon was unique in this regard.
They're a gloriously messed-up bunch, the lot of them. I think that's
one of the reasons why I like the show so much. :)
> But let's say Avon really did misjudge his shipmates. That he really believed
> they wouldn't follow him. Even that mistake isn't grounds to label him as
> dysfunctional. Blake misjudged Avon's words at STAR ONE--he thought the
> words meant that Avon hated him. Does that make Blake dysfunctional or does
> it simply show that he is a fallible human?
Well, first of all, I gotta say... I know I used the word and even put
it in the subject line and everything, but I'm increasingly coming to
dislike this word "dysfunctional." Not just because it's a slippery and
subjective term, but because it's a) an ugly label to slap on somebody,
and b) it's a deceptively simple word to use for a whole complex stew of
human psychology. So I am no longer going to say "Avon is
dysfunctional" because what I really mean is "Avon, IMHO, has some
problems with certain emotional issues, and with interpersonal
relationships, which sometimes have very unfortunate consequences for
him." And one of those problems, IMO, is a tendency -- *sometimes* --
to make very bad judgments with regards to other people. As for
Blake... Well, I think Blake has his own problems... :)
> > I don't expect them to be perfect, either, and I find Avon's
> > imperfections the most interesting things about him. I certainly don't
> > want to create the impression that I'm dumping on him for being
> > "dysfunctional." If anything, I think I like the idea of a
> > slightly-messed-up Avon because that's much, much more interesting to me
> > than a normal, totally emotionally healthy Avon would be. (Not to
> > mention easier for me to relate to...)
>
> Maybe that's the key. And you wouldn't be alone. Poor Avon is a popular
> image in fandom.
Well, I am *definitely* not a member of the camp who wants to view Avon
as a poor wounded baby in order to fantasize about giving him a big hug
and making it all better. God forbid! I just find people who are
slightly messed up to be much more interesting than normal,
perfectly-well-adjused folks, both in fiction and in real life.
As for the issue of relating to Avon... Brief tangent: Not all that
long ago, I happened to read Camille Bacon-Smith's book on
fanfic-writing fandom (IIRC, Una mentioned this particular book on this
list a while back, too). Now, some of the stuff in the book seemed
pretty accurate to me, and some of it kind of had me scratching my head
and going "huh?", but there was one little passage that gave me a real
"Aha!" moment. Bacon-Smith is talking about the fact that, since most
fanfic writers are women, fanfic often tends to deal with issues that
are of particular importance to women. And one of the themes she claims
to see a lot in fanfic involves the tension between the need for
independence and the need for emotional ties. (Which is not to say that
that's not an issue for men, but I think it's not to difficult to see
why it might be of particular interest to women.) And whether that's
true of fanfic in general, I couldn't really say, but as it happens
that's an issue with a lot of personal resonance for *me*. And I
immediately found myself exclaiming "Oh, yes, *that*'s what it is about
Avon!" because, for me, he perfectly embodies that particular conflict.
There's a bit of chicken-and-egg question there, of course: Am I drawn
to this character because he represents an issue that's important to me,
or to I see him as representing that issue *because* that issue is
important to me? I think the answer is a little bit of both. After
all, when there's as much room for intepretation as there is in B7
characterization, what you bring to it is going to make a great deal of
difference to what you take away from it. (Although I *will* stubbornly
maintain that my interpretation of the character is at *least* as
consistent with canon as anybody else's. It's not a case of inventing
things out of whole cloth, but of varying interpretations of what we see
on the screen.)
And there's no queston that multiple interpretations *are* possible.
That may even, to some extent, been deliberate. Coincidentally, I was
reading an interview this morning (in "Down and Unsafe 3") which
included what I thought was an absolutely delightful quote from PD:
"[In the Blake farewell scene] at the end of 'Star One', the
director,who was also the producer, David Maloney, said to me, 'I'm
going to give you a big close-up here and I want to see what you feel
about Blake.' I wasn't sure, so I did nothing -- absolutely nothing. I
thought '*You* work it out', and someone said to me, 'You *bastard*, you
hated his guts!' [laughter] and my mother, she turned to me and she said
'I could see your affection for him.'"
Which really says it all, I think. :)
> Hm, I'm going to sidestep here. What would give him the idea that Anna died
> to spare him? She didn't walk into Federation hands to save him. She was
> picked up, tortured and killed against her will, per what he seems to
> believe. And she didn't spare him; he was picked up as well, possibly
> tortured and questioned at the time of his initial arrest.
Anna refused to talk. Or so her brother believed. From "Countdown":
"They kept her under interrogation for nearly a week. They tried
everything but she never broke. If she had spoken, told them what they
wanted to know, she'd be alive now." Presumably "what they wanted to
know" was Avon's whereabouts, or possibly details about his plans. As
far as Avon knew, she died in an attempt to protect him from capture.
> > after all, revenge is a powerful and quite normal human motivation. But
> > I *will* say, categorically, that I do *not* think that this is a
> > healthy, adaptive method of coping with grief and guilt.
>
> Not healthy by societal standards. And I'm not advocating vigilantism. But
> per what you said, you thought it dysfunctional that he'd suffer five days of
> torture and risk his life. I don't see that as an unreasonable reaction.
> And as you say revenge is a NORMAL human motivation.
The impulse to revenge is normal, if not, IMO, laudable. I do regard
what Avon did in "Rumours" as extreme. Disturbingly so.
Talking about "Blake now":
> > What would I have him do? Let the man finish his sentence, at least.
>
> Am I forgetting something? Did Avon cut him down in mid sentence? I thought
> Blake had stopped talking.
Oh, all right, I didn't mean that *literally*. Substitute "Let the man
finish giving his explanation" if you like.
> Why would Avon think/know that Blake is the leader? That information isn't
> available to him.
Oh, come on, it's *Blake*! Of *course* he's going to be the leader! :)
> I think he expected betrayal even before Anna. And nothing has changed to
> persuade him to trust anyone except those immediately around him, his current
> crew.
I agree with that. But I think Anna made it a lot worse.
> > Paradoxically, I think Avon
> > *does* trust Blake, and I think that's the reason why he's so quick to
> > see and respond to signs of betrayal on Blake's part. He knows he is
> > vulnerable to Blake.
>
> I don't understand what you are saying. How would being vulnerable to Blake
> make a difference?
Yes, I was afraid I'd need to expand on that. Here's what I mean (and
keep in mind that this is *very* much my interpretation of the
characters we're talking about now; I know you have a different view of
the Avon-Blake relationship): Avon *does* manage to keep pretty much
everybody at an emotional distance, and does tend to never quite wholly
trust anybody. So when people -- *most* people -- betray him, well it's
no more than he, in his pessimism, expected. Example: when it looks
like Soolin's sold him out in "Warlord." He's obviously angry, and
disgusted, but he doesn't seem truly *wounded* by it, emotionally. He
trusts her well enough to live and fight with her, but he's always kept
in the back of his mind that she might turn on him. It's a pragmatic
thing, and his emotions don't particularly enter into it. There are
lots of other examples of this sort of thing. IMO Blake, however, is a
different matter. I think he utterly failed to keep Blake at that kind
of emotional distance, to truly believe in and accept the possibility
that Blake, too, might sell him out. So when it looks like *Blake* has
betrayed him, it *hurts*. He's trusted Blake, he's let himself get
emotionally entanged with Blake, and so he is vulnerable to Blake, in
the same way that he was vulnerable to Anna. And being vulnerable
scares him, and makes him angry, and is just generally
next-to-impossible for him to deal with reasonably. If it had been
anybody else, I think he would have held his fire until he had a better
handle on the situation. Does that make more sense?
> Thanks for the interesting discussions,
I'm enjoying it, too.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:06:19 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re:if Shakespeare wrote Blake's 7
Message-ID: <39F7919B.E49@jps.net>
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>
> One wonders what Shakespeare would have done with Avon, especially if he
> knew he had to take Servalan being queen into account. . . .
>
Avon would be another Iago,and Blake probably really would have been a
pedophile. After all, Shakespeare couldn't risk Elizabeth thinking
Servie was meant to be an unflattering metaphor for *her*. So the
Supreme Commander would be the defender of the Federation, etc, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:49:36 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long)
Message-ID: <39F79BC0.56B495B5@sdc.org>
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Responding to me, Sally Manton wrote:
> <I think I like the idea of a slightly-messed-up Avon because that's much,
> much more interesting to me than a normal, totally emotionally healthy Avon
> would be.>
>
> Oh absolutely. The difficulty is keeping it in proportion (I am not a fan of
> the Avon-goes-nuts school).
Oh, neither am I, certainly not in its extreme form. I do think Avon
was having some serious problems by the end of the 4th season, but I
would definitely not call him nuts.
> We've *seen* Avon react to
> real or purported betrayal before (Jenna, Bounty; Tynus, Killer; Soolin,
> that moment in Warlord). We've seen him expecting it from the others as
> well (changing the password so they can't take off with Scorpio in Power ...
> that is, if you accept Power as Really Happening :-)).
>
> He's rarely surprised and never (except with Anna and Blake) really upset
> (which says something about the way he views the rest of the human race
> *except* these two, I guess).
Ah, well, you've said that *much* more succinctly than I just did in the
last post. :)
> Look at his face as Blake falls - he's stunned,
> as if he doesn't understand what he's done (of course, at this minute, I'm
> of the uncanonical opinion that he's also realised they were wrong ...
*Sniff* Agreed, on both points.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:02:21 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: bookworms
Message-ID: <39F79EBD.5384@jps.net>
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> From:
> Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
> Add Sherlock Holmes to Avon's list
>
Yes, considering a Sherlockian friend pointed out the finger-steepling
mannerism in "Mission To Destiny" indicating Avon was *deliberately*
playing at Sherlock Holmes.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:00:32 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon and Marriage
Message-ID: <20001025.220034.-423381.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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Looking over the previous post, decided I might as well clarify. I'd
jotted down a couple of story ideas and was working on something else
when I began to notice a few constants. In one story, I admit to
actually giving Avon a 'happily ever after' - sort of. He more or less
had a gun pointed to his head.
In another, the idea was what if Avon _was_ in a situation where (oh,
happy Mary Sue cliches!) he found it conducive to his survival to get
married - only to have Mary Sue's hopes thrown apart as the life and
death imperative only immediately vanishs (sort of a 'Mary Sue wakes up
and smells the coffee' scenario).
The next bit was one where he actually was willing to enter into an on
paper and in name only type marriage for what was really an attempt to
help someone else's survival odds (yes, he had a selfish excuse). The
possibility of the 'on paper only thing' naturally rears its head - only
to run smack dab into more reality. Avon's interest in Meegats being
largely limited to the time period they desperately need his help.
All right, humorous bits, but they got me thinking about what scenarios I
might expect Avon to actually get married in. The kept coming up with
'for practical purposes only.' I started looking through my admitably
small store of romantic fiction and wondering what would happen.
Emma: He might go for her. She had money.
Mansfield Park: He might express an interest in Fanny, but only until she
had been sufficiently saved from marrying the guy she didn't want.
Pride and Prejudice: He had the pride and Elizabeth Bennett wouldn't be
bad for him, but I can't see them starting a conversation.
Jane Eyre: Question #1: Is Avon Rochester or St. John? I can't see him
doing the manipulative stuff Rochester does to make sure Jane _really_
likes him (although mad wife Servalan in the attic is appealing). OTOH,
if he were iceman St. John, I can't really see him trying to coerce her
into marrying him.
Wuthering Heights: Cathy marries Linton. Avon Heathcliff leaves, robs
the Bank of London, and never comes back.
Sleepless in Seattle: Vila tries to get Avon to chat to a radio
psychologist about the pain of losing Anna. Avon shoots the radio.
Return to Me: Someone suggests setting Avon up on a date with someone who
got Anna Grant's heart transplant. Much laughter ensues.
Gone with the Wind: Avon burns Atlanta.
Gigi: Avon sends Gigi to college and leaves Paris to join the Jesuits.
Titanic: Avon stops Rose's suicide but otherwise avoids her. When the
boat is going down, he trips the homicidal fiance and takes his place on
the lifeboat. No, on second thought, Avon noticed the structural defects
in the ship early on and took a different boat.
You've Got Mail: Avon learns the e-mail pen pal he's been giving advice
to is actually Servalan. He shoots her.
Sabrina: OK, this I can see. Having forged an alliance by getting
Tarrant betrothed to the ruler's daughter, when Cally shows up alive
(with a better fashion sense, better developed mental defenses, and
completely over the more humorless thing some people accuse her of) and
Tarrant thinks he's falling for her. Avon arranges for Tarrant to be
moderately injured and in recovery while he plays interference. And
Cally gets a chance to tell Avon what people say about him ("The world's
only living heart donor"). Whether or not Tarrant would punch Avon in
the face or survive doing it being open to debate.
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:45:13 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwatch
Message-ID: <003b01c03f08$444c1920$ad614e0c@dshilling>
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In response to Sally's:
>(well, can *you* see him [Blake]
> >darning? Or anyone on the ship offering to do it for him?)
>
> After the knitting, I'm sure I can if it's Dana writing the fanfic.
For the benefit of the uni-listual, I should point out that I DID
write a story in which Avon knitted an intarsia sweater for
Blake (it says "HMS Liberator"--for "Honest Man's Ship"--on
the front), leading Vila and Gan to take up this exciting new
hobby. But knitting a sweater (especially from your own pattern)
produces much more exciting and visible results than darning.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:51:55 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage
Message-ID: <F730rmTIVvLVKi3s1ws00001ced@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Now there's a subject line to get people's attention. I salute you, Ellyne!
>From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
>Pride and Prejudice: He had the pride and Elizabeth Bennett wouldn't be
>bad for him, but I can't see them starting a conversation.
I can't see him even visiting the area if he heard about her younger
sisters. Vila might babble as though he were empty-headed, but Lydia would
most definitely have Avon hunting her and not bothering about embedded bits
of neutron stars...
Avon as, oh what was the character's name, you know, the one played by Alan
Rickman in Emma Thompson's version of Sense and Sensibility, perhaps?
Perhaps not. He's a bit of a tragic figure, if you like, but I can't help
feeling it's the eldest of the Dashwood sisters he'd prefer to the middle
one.
I think I've picked a bad time even to consider this, though I was feeling
sleepy beforehand, rather than it being because of thinking about
literature.
Regards
Jo
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:56:19 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage
Message-ID: <F145NuQuN6tdqVvPdLF000019af@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Told you I was going to sleep. I meant to respond to this as well, but...
>From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
>Emma: He might go for her. She had money.
I'd agree with you, Ellyne, were it not for my reluctance to inflict Emma on
anyone (never could stand her), let alone Avon. Unless you were planning for
him to run off with said money, of course.
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:44:02 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage
Message-ID: <LAW-F256gJKVApwOLZC00000fc2@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Joanne wrote:
<Avon as, oh what was the character's name, you know, the one played by Alan
Rickman in Emma Thompson's version of Sense and Sensibility, perhaps?>
Errr ... as written by Austen (not played by Rickman) he's more Gan-ish than
Avonish to me, I'm afraid - sensible and a bit staid in a perfectly nice
way.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 03:13:34 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Marriage
Message-Id: <4.1.20001026031138.009e5ab0@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:00 PM 10/25/00 -0600, Ellynne G. wrote:
>Emma: He might go for her. She had money.
Isn't that happy news, Mrs. Peel? Or is "marriage" not what you are gunning
for?
--
"How real do you feel, Mrs. Peel?"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:35:23 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, freedom-city@blakes-7.org,
DownandSafe@egroups.com
Subject: [B7L] Call for information
Message-ID: <af.24bc9b0.27297f0b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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I'm in the process of putting together the information column for the
upcoming issue of the Tarrant APA. If anyone has anything they'd like me to
include, please send it along via private e-mail.
I try to save all information posts that are sent to the various B7 lists,
and should have all that, but feel free to refresh my memory or to send along
a specifically worded blurb that you'd like me to include.
We include listings for new merchandise (zines, magazines, CDs, etc.), zines
seeking submissions, upcoming conventions, websites, Steven Pacey's
professional activities, and any and all miscellaneous bits that might be of
interest to our members.
Thanks,
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:35:26 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <f6.3f43330.27297f0e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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Betty wrote:
> I do so know the feeling. :)
What made it worse, I never sent the *post* calling for APA information that
brought me to the computer. I've just now corrected that.
> I'd say, however, that he's very lucky to have found himself among
> people who *are* willing to tolerate him.
Which seems to have been a lot of people. Maybe it has something to do with
the Federation universe. His behavior was minor scratches compared to what
else was going on. His third-season shipmates don't only tolerate him, they
are protective of him.
> Oh, I firmly agree that Avon is capable of irrational behavior. I think
> that's partly what I've been saying here, actually. :)
Something we can agree on; though reading below we don't agree on the degree
of irrationality. :)
> Yeah, the B7 universe it a pretty dysfunctional place (as well as being
> dystopian).
It's that so many pieces of fanfiction seem to acknowledge that in regard to
Avon while brushing aside that the others have equal stresses and problems.
It really is a Poor Avon fandom. "Avon is suffering. Why aren't the rest of
you doing something about it?"
> Avon, IMHO, has some
> problems with certain emotional issues, and with interpersonal
> relationships, which sometimes have very unfortunate consequences for
> him."
This is where we disagree again. I think. I don't think his approach to
emotional issues and interpersonal relationships is so severely maladjusted
that he isn't able to cope with the consequences. But that's a judgment call
and there really isn't much to say about it except that the manner in which
he copes with Anna's betrayal indicated a mentally and emotionally healthy
individual to me. Yes, there was an initial shock, but then he pulled
himself together and went on.
> And one of those problems, IMO, is a tendency -- *sometimes* --
> to make very bad judgments with regards to other people.
I thought he was actually better at reading people than most of his
shipmates, but not out of an instinctual empathy with the human race. He
observed people and learned from those observations. For instance, it was
his sure knowledge that his third-season shipmates would support him that
made him go through the elaborate effort to keep them out of it.
> And one of the themes she claims
> to see a lot in fanfic involves the tension between the need for
> independence and the need for emotional ties.
I've never seen that independence and emotional ties were mutually exclusive,
so I can't relate to that. And the relationship fanfic that works best for
me involves two people who maintain their independence while forming an
emotional commitment.
Now I can't say what particular pieces of fanfic CB-S is referring to (and it
is my understanding that she really didn't sample a wide variety), but my
fanfic memories tell me that many stories focus on one partner in a
relationship being more needy than the other, and maybe that's what she is
referring to.
> Anna refused to talk. Or so her brother believed. From "Countdown":
> "They kept her under interrogation for nearly a week. They tried
> everything but she never broke. If she had spoken, told them what they
> wanted to know, she'd be alive now." Presumably "what they wanted to
> know" was Avon's whereabouts, or possibly details about his plans. As
> far as Avon knew, she died in an attempt to protect him from capture.
Thanks. I'd forgotten that. It explains where you got, "She died to keep me
safe, etc." Which is definitely a possible reaction.
> The impulse to revenge is normal, if not, IMO, laudable. I do regard
> what Avon did in "Rumours" as extreme. Disturbingly so.
He had put in enough safeguards that I don't see it as all that disturbing.
This was a thoroughly planned, well-executed operation. And it was a risk he
was rationally willing to take. We'll have to accept that "disturbing" is a
matter of individual interpretation.
> Oh, come on, it's *Blake*! Of *course* he's going to be the leader! :)
Especially with his just got back from rolling in some grizzly leavings look.
:) I think we can forgive Avon if he failed to recognize the leader image
this time round.
Seriously, Orac told Avon that Blake was a bounty hunter. Blake looked like
a rough and tumble bounty hunter. That's the type of betrayal Avon would
perceive he's encountering: Blake as a bounty hunter. Bounty hunters don't
normally have a base and large staffs. That overhead would kill their profit
margin.
> Example: when it looks
> like Soolin's sold him out in "Warlord." He's obviously angry, and
> disgusted, but he doesn't seem truly *wounded* by it, emotionally.
We have very different interpretations of WARLORD. Zukan is the one who
betrayed Avon. Not Soolin. Avon's reactions told me that he had complete
trust in Soolin and that he understood what she was up to from the get go.
His disgusted look was acting intended to support her endeavor. He wanted
those troopers to believe her. It's the same ploy he used effectively in
POWERPLAY. Pretend to betray an ally to get the enemy off guard.
But let's say for a second that he didn't know Soolin was up to something, he
still wouldn't be upset or regard it as a personal betrayal. He'd see it as
a pragmatic action that he'd take if he had the chance. Why should both of
them end up in Federation hands? This is the man who knew it was Plaxton or
everyone. The man would have thrown Vila off the shuttle when he thought it
was Vila or him.
> I think he utterly failed to keep Blake at that kind
> of emotional distance, to truly believe in and accept the possibility
> that Blake, too, might sell him out.
You're right; we don't see this the same way at all. I can't begin to see
that emotional connection.
> And being vulnerable
> scares him, and makes him angry, and is just generally
> next-to-impossible for him to deal with reasonably. If it had been
> anybody else, I think he would have held his fire until he had a better
> handle on the situation. Does that make more sense?
Not in regard to Avon as I see him. But it did provide insight. The Avon
you are describing is a dysfunctional person, if it's okay to use that word
again.
And that's where/how we usually see dysfunctional Avon in fanfic and in
discussions. It's to explain his behavior in a way that allows him to be
closer to another character. In this case, Blake. You can brush aside
canonical negatives with "he was afraid of his emotions and that's why he was
pushing Blake away, said he needed to be free of Blake, etc."
And that's fine, if it appeals. Why not interpret the show in a way that
makes it more enjoyable for you.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:03:40 -0400
From: "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <000201c03f5e$b85619a0$4bf25a0c@oemcomputer>
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From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
> Katie wrote:
> <I just recently rewatched "Stardrive" (hey, I'm making progress in my
> Grand Rewatching!)>
>
> - which means you get Animals next, lucky you ... :-)
Oh no, I did that one the same day. Og's got a heck of a head on him
there. I enjoyed that. I'm up to, er, "Headhunter" next. Is that the one
with the bridge?
> And it doesn't stop there ... <veg> our own little Angels of Death,
> aren't they? Personally, were I a 4th-season Mary Sue, I'd run a
> light year at the first glint of the studs *or* the teeth ...
Heh. "Oh, er, yes, of course I've heard of you. Gosh, well, it's not
that I'm not *interested* in collaboration but you see I can't possibly this
month, I'm having major dental surgery, and then I've got this desperate
need not to die horribly..."
--Katie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:06:20 -0400
From: "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner?
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From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
> own head. Killing Blake is a kind of 'objective correlative' for the moral
> downfall Avon is always tempted to undertake. In other words, Blake seems
to
> say, 'If you want to quit, you'll have to walk over my dead body.'
>
> Which he eventually does.
"Oh no, you never did." At the end he chose *not* to quit in the manner
of his death. Probably enjoyed the absurdity of it all...
--Katie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 18:01:13 +0200
From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Richard III and all that
Message-Id: <200010261601.SAA27859@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
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Ellynne asked:
>One wonders what Shakespeare would have done with Avon, especially if he
>knew he had to take Servalan being queen into account. . . .
>
Well, if you have a romantic notion of Avon, this is what he might have said
to Del Grant (I've substituted Ophelia for Anna):
I prithee take thy fingers from my throat.
For, though I am not splentive and rash,
Yet have I in me something dangerous,
Which let thy wisdom fear. Hold off thy hand.
I loved Anna. Forty thousand brothers
Could not with all their quantity of love
Make up my sum. What wilt thou do for her?
'Swounds, show me what thou't do.
Woo't weep? Woo't fight? Woo't fast? Woo't tear
thyself?
Woo't drink up eisel? Eat a crocodile?
I'll do it. Dost thou come here to whine?
To outface me with leaping in her grave?
Be buried quick with her, and so will I.
Although, honestly speaking, Avon is not a suitable hero for Shakespeare,
for the simple reason that we always have an insight into Shakespeare's
heroes psyche, through their monologues. Even when they don't interact too
much with other characters, they address the audience, while Avon cannot do
this. Avon is more a character of minimalist literature, where we have to
guess and feel much more than we are told. Hemingway, or Raymond Carver,
would make much better use of Avon than Shakespeare.
N.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:07:26 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <001901c03f66$e91d4ec0$ad0f9ad8@cgorman>
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Doraleen McArthur wrote :
> From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
>
> > Katie wrote:
> > <I just recently rewatched "Stardrive" (hey, I'm making progress in my
> > Grand Rewatching!)>
> >
> > - which means you get Animals next, lucky you ... :-)
>
> Oh no, I did that one the same day. Og's got a heck of a head on him
> there. I enjoyed that. I'm up to, er, "Headhunter" next. Is that the
one
> with the bridge?
Yep, that's the one. I quite like "Headhunter", especially watching Avon
argue with Orac about leaving the teleport switched off.
Steve D.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:28:51 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <39F85BC3.F9EE62D2@sdc.org>
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Carol Mc wrote:
> What made it worse, I never sent the *post* calling for APA information that
> brought me to the computer. I've just now corrected that.
Like going to the grocery store and fogetting to buy what you came for,
hmm? I do that all the time. :)
> > Yeah, the B7 universe it a pretty dysfunctional place (as well as being
> > dystopian).
>
> It's that so many pieces of fanfiction seem to acknowledge that in regard to
> Avon while brushing aside that the others have equal stresses and problems.
> It really is a Poor Avon fandom. "Avon is suffering. Why aren't the rest of
> you doing something about it?"
Ah. Well, I admit that, to my mind, Avon's suffering is the most
*interesting*, but the others certainly all have their own stresses and
problems.
> This is where we disagree again. I think. I don't think his approach to
> emotional issues and interpersonal relationships is so severely maladjusted
> that he isn't able to cope with the consequences. But that's a judgment call
> and there really isn't much to say about it except that the manner in which
> he copes with Anna's betrayal indicated a mentally and emotionally healthy
> individual to me. Yes, there was an initial shock, but then he pulled
> himself together and went on.
Well, I think we disagree (here at least) more in degree than in kind.
IMO Avon *does* tend to cope pretty well (or at least, well enough to
remain functional) with a lot of things that would destroy other
people. Except when he doesn't. He seems to me to be the sort of
person who's very good at denying his emotions and suppressing them so
they they don't impair his ability to keep going. Which works as long
as he manages to *keep* that tight control. When it falters (as I
believe it does in "Blake"), he's in trouble.
> > And one of those problems, IMO, is a tendency -- *sometimes* --
> > to make very bad judgments with regards to other people.
>
> I thought he was actually better at reading people than most of his
> shipmates, but not out of an instinctual empathy with the human race. He
> observed people and learned from those observations. For instance, it was
> his sure knowledge that his third-season shipmates would support him that
> made him go through the elaborate effort to keep them out of it.
I do think, perhaps, that my estimation of his people-reading skills
suffers a bit from an unfair comparison with Blake. :)
> Now I can't say what particular pieces of fanfic CB-S is referring to (and it
> is my understanding that she really didn't sample a wide variety), but my
> fanfic memories tell me that many stories focus on one partner in a
> relationship being more needy than the other, and maybe that's what she is
> referring to.
I don't entirely remember, myself. I'm not sure she even went into it in
any more detail.
> > The impulse to revenge is normal, if not, IMO, laudable. I do regard
> > what Avon did in "Rumours" as extreme. Disturbingly so.
>
> He had put in enough safeguards that I don't see it as all that disturbing.
> This was a thoroughly planned, well-executed operation. And it was a risk he
> was rationally willing to take. We'll have to accept that "disturbing" is a
> matter of individual interpretation.
Yes, comes down to a difference of perspective, yet again. Although I
think my assessment of the risks involved in that plan is probably
higher than yours. It seems to me that there are a *lot* of ways it
could have gone horribly wrong.
> We have very different interpretations of WARLORD. Zukan is the one who
> betrayed Avon. Not Soolin. Avon's reactions told me that he had complete
> trust in Soolin and that he understood what she was up to from the get go.
> His disgusted look was acting intended to support her endeavor. He wanted
> those troopers to believe her. It's the same ploy he used effectively in
> POWERPLAY. Pretend to betray an ally to get the enemy off guard.
Hmm, definitely different interpretations. I got the impression that he
*did* believe her, if only for a short while. Perhaps I should go watch
it again and see if I change my mind...
> But let's say for a second that he didn't know Soolin was up to something, he
> still wouldn't be upset or regard it as a personal betrayal. He'd see it as
> a pragmatic action that he'd take if he had the chance. Why should both of
> them end up in Federation hands?
Oh, yes, exactly. But I still think that if it were Blake, it would
have been different. He *doesn't* expect that sort of thing from
Blake. IMHO.
> > I think he utterly failed to keep Blake at that kind
> > of emotional distance, to truly believe in and accept the possibility
> > that Blake, too, might sell him out.
>
> You're right; we don't see this the same way at all. I can't begin to see
> that emotional connection.
[Shrug] As I know I've said before, it seems to me the only explanation
that makes any sense at all of many of his actions. Like the way he's
constantly putting himself in danger for Blake...
> Not in regard to Avon as I see him. But it did provide insight. The Avon
> you are describing is a dysfunctional person, if it's okay to use that word
> again.
More so than yours, anyway. But, again -- also IMHO -- more interesting.
> And that's where/how we usually see dysfunctional Avon in fanfic and in
> discussions. It's to explain his behavior in a way that allows him to be
> closer to another character. In this case, Blake. You can brush aside
> canonical negatives with "he was afraid of his emotions and that's why he was
> pushing Blake away, said he needed to be free of Blake, etc."
Yes, I think this is a good point. If you accept premise A ("Avon cared
deeply about Blake"), you're sort of forced into premise B ("Avon had
emotional problems that would let him accept that he cared deeply about
Blake"). Of course, if you *reject* premise A, you then have to find
some premise C to explain why, if he *doesn't* care about Blake, he
nevertheless does everything for Blake that he does. I've seen various
premise C's: "Avon really is an idealist, deep down, and *wants* to help
Blake destroy the Federation" or "Avon really does have a noble, caring
streak and would do the same for any of them." Neither of which is
remotely convincing to *me*.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:44:22 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <39F85F66.AAC9DC8E@sdc.org>
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I wrote:
> If you accept premise A ("Avon cared
> deeply about Blake"), you're sort of forced into premise B ("Avon had
> emotional problems that would let him accept that he cared deeply about
> Blake").
Whoops. That should be "...wouldn't let him accept...", of course.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:07:11 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long)
Message-ID: <000201c03f75$d8efeda0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: <Mac4781@aol.com>
> Neil (quoting me) wrote:
<snip>
> Making a post that is so agreeable is almost unsettling. But I'm sure it
is
> just a momentary aberration.
You're unsettled? How do you think I feel? Especially when I've found
myself agreeing with most of what you've said on this topic, such as the
paragraph immediately before the one I responded to.
Not that I'd ever admit it, of course.
Neil
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #299
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