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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 304
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] A New Character
Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs.
Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs.
[B7L] Good - Bad - I'm the one with the DSV.
[B7L] Re: ethics
[B7L] Re: ethics
[B7L] Gan and Avon
Re: [B7L] A New Character
[B7L] ADMIN: List downtime
Re: [B7L] A New Character
Re: [B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other"
RE: [B7L] Re: ethics
Fw: [B7L] Chain snowballs.
[B7L] A New Character
[B7L] Oak Leaf
Re: [B7L] Gan and Avon
[B7L] Re:Servalan tape
Re: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
[B7L] HORIZON - Zine Order Department
[B7L] The League of Gan appreciators - was Gan and Avon
Fwd: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character)
Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:24:35 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <19981209082435.08525@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:02:28AM -0500, LordRab@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 98-12-07 09:21:38 EST, you write:
>
> << Kerr Avon) :
>
> "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others"
> >>
>
> Nice line! Though the episode of Voyager you mention is one I actually
> almost liked. They may have chosen the "PC" solution, but I didn't get the
> feel that anyone was happy with the outcome.
> So what would the B7 folks have done? Avon, as you pointed, probably would
> have kept the data. What of the others? Deborah Rose >>
>
>
> I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from
> other times by contemporary standards.
Why not? They happen to be the only standards you have, the ones you
have now. It makes just as much sense to say that what is wrong in
one age is right in another as to say that what is wrong on a Tuesday
is right on a Monday. Surely a vegetarian who is one for moral
reasons, thinks that animals suffered just as much when eaten in the
12th century as they do now, and therefore it is just as wrong to do, no
matter when in history you happen to be. If he had been transported
back in time to the 12th century, he wouldn't suddenly start eating
meat, would he?
(Sorry, I've been reading G. K. Chesterson recently. (-8 )
> Rather than say what I think the B7
> folks would have done I'll say what I would have had them do ( After all, they
> are fictional characters and at the mercy of writers, heh heh ).
Not if the writer actually listens to the characters, as all good
writers do. In that case, the writer is at the mercy of the
characters.
> In that
> future, people would have accepted that most of our medical data has usually
> been obtained from experimenting on live prisoners, albeit creatures slightly
> lower on the food chain than us,
Well, getting back to the original question, as to how the characters
would react to questionable data...
Yes, Avon would have kept the data. And would have argued with Blake
about it. Blake would have wanted to destroy it, for his usual
sentimental reasons. Cally, perhaps, would have wanted to keep it,
for a different moral reason: to redeem the suffering that those
prisoners went through. That is, if the data were destroyed, then
they went through all that suffering for absolutely nothing. But if
the data could be used for good, to save other people, then that is a
small repayment for their pain, making good come out of evil. Or
maybe it would be Gan who comes up with that argument. Perhaps not:
he himself has suffered from Federation medical experiments himself,
that would probably give him a bias -- or it could give him an
insight, from the prisoner point of view.
Well, gotta go!
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Blake is sitting up in a tree. Travis is sitting up in another tree.
Unless they're planning to throw nuts at one another, I don't see
much of a fight developing before it gets light."
-- Kerr Avon (Blake's 7: Duel [A8])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:13:52 -0000
From: "Dangermouse" <master@sol.co.uk>
To: "Meredith Dixon" <dixonm@access.mountain.net>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs.
Message-Id: <199812090220.CAA05746@gnasher.sol.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I just saw Dangermouse's rejoinder to Calle -- that the Internet
> snowball he sent was "not a chain letter." It most certainly
> *is* a chain letter; I've seen those confounded snowballs all
> over the net, and I'm glad Calle spoke up in response.
>
> I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny
> the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received
> a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age.
Oh, so now I'm a spammer and chainer?
Fine, I quit
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:44:08 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs.
Message-ID: <19981209024408.4530.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>> I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny
>> the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received
>> a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age.
>
>Oh, so now I'm a spammer and chainer?
>
>Fine, I quit
Can't you just put it down to experience? It's no big deal getting
caught out by a chain letter: the originators started off with crude
scams like "send this letter on to buy a new heart for a little boy" --
I've known a conference organiser get caught out by that one. She went
and forwarded it to all of her delegates, the silly moo.
But anyway, after realising that scam wasn't working any more, they
tried saying "Don't read this email, otherwise your hard drive will
self-destruct, oh and forward this message to as many people as you
can." Now that people have got wise to that one, humour has been the
latest gimmick. In all cases, the aim has been the same --
proliferation of a single message on a grand scale. To be honest, I
don't know why anyone would want to do this. Maybe the originators of
the chain letter are trying to establish some kind of spam database.
Whatever it is, they're up to no good, and shouldn't be encouraged.
Calle had no choice but to say something: he'd have been neglecting his
duty as list administrator if he hadn't.
-- Rob
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 19:05:04 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Good - Bad - I'm the one with the DSV.
Message-ID: <19981209030505.21211.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Rob said:
>And then the Federation itself was never portrayed as anything but
>evil.
"'...I heard the Empire has a tyrannical and repressive government!'
'What form of government is that?' said Ponder Stibbons.
'A tautology,' said the Dean..."
>Conversely, there were some characters who could genuinely have been
>cast as "good". Gan is the obvious choice;
Genuinely good, and explicitly ineffectual/powerless. Coincidence?
>another example might be, on
>account of their devotion to the "Rule of Life", the clonemasters.
But they were working for the Evil Federation! And their response to
Travis' totally pointless murder or poor red-shirted Blake Clone 1 was
pretty cavalier. I wouldn't trust 'em.
>There were examples of good and evil in B7 -- of that I'm sure.
Definitely. I never said there weren't. Did I? Oh, yes, I did. Dang! But
no guarantee that Good would win. There are black and white pieces on a
chessboard, they're easy enough to tell apart if you're not blindfolded,
but that doesn't tell you anything about which side will win. Or which
pieces will survive. Only who to cheer for (Go, Evil, Go!).
--Penny "I _am_ Spock" Dreadful
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 98 03:56:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: ethics
Message-Id: <199812090416.EAA22894@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Pat P. asked:
>What did the Allies do with Nazi research
>on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or
>added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision?
There was a case rather like this in the news about ten years or so ago, I
think, although I don't remember the details and can't seem to lay hands on
the info easily. It came out that some Japanese doctors who had been
engaged in very nasty germ warfare experiments on Chinese prisoners in
Manchuria had been pardoned by U.S. military authorities (or at least
released, with no charges brought against them) in return for handing over
their data. (And lest anyone succumb to nationalistic generalizations, it
was a Japanese reporter who broke the story.) The feeling at the time
seemed to be that if the data had been acquired accidentally, that would be
one thing, but bargaining with the perps for it was immoral.
I kind of suspect that this incident may have been in the mind of whoever
wrote what Pat referred to.
I do like the fact that moral choices in B7 are seldom cut and dried and can
often be argued either way, Blake's decision at Star One being the most
obvious example. I find it interesting that fans so often seem to want to
disambiguate these situations-- for instance, arguing that Blake was either
a saint or a monster, as the case may be-- when the ambiguity is the very
thing that I find interesting.
Alison, your Whig vs. Tory analysis is very intriguing, and on the whole I
think I agree. I also agree that B7 doesn't really qualify as Tory SF.
Perhaps there isn't really a proper political metaphor for what it is, since
cynical wit does not get one very far in political situations and so is not
associated with any particular party.
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:45:37 -0600 (EST)
From: Tegan Brandi <tegan@goddess.coe.missouri.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: ethics
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.05.9812082239350.13604-100000@goddess.coe.missouri.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Pat P. asked:
>
>What did the Allies do with Nazi research
>on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or
>added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision?
No, much of the Nazi medical research was not destroyed (I'm not sure if
any was). The one instance I can think of off hand is that we know how
long it takes a person to succumb to hypothermia and die. That piece of
information was most definitely added to Western knowledge.
It disgusts me to know what the Nazi's went through to get that
information, throwing Jews into freezing water and just timing it. In my
gut, though, I cannot believe we should let those people die for nothing
and their suffering be completely forgotten. I think it's the right
decision to use the results of those... torture tests... for the benefit
of all beingkind.
tegan (*)
tegan@goddess.coe.missouri.edu
http://goddess.coe.missouri.edu/~tegan
So toss away stuff you don't need in the end
But keep what's important and know who's your friend
- Phish, Theme From the Bottom
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:38:47 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Gan and Avon
Message-ID: <38d8af81.366dfed7@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-12-08 21:05:37 EST, Kathryn wrote:
<< Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't
make Gan stupid.
>>
Gan may not have been the brightest of the crew or particularly intellectual,
but he had a solid common sense that I think the crew badly needed. I haven't
seen all the episodes, but from the transcripts it looks like his death was
when things really started to go downhill in the second season.
I'm not so sure Avon was a genius either. I agree that he was very good in
his area of expertise but he also did some amazingly stupid things like
messing around with the Ultraworld.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:40:40 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-Id: <E0zng9t-0000Rh-00@post.mail.demon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> Hey, are you calling me a Trekkie? Grr! Lazeron-destructors at dawn!
> What I *meant* was that it's very difficult to have Good triumph over
> Evil on a weekly basis in a universe where there *is* no Good. Much
> like our own (in my humbly cynical opinion).
>
> I don't *need* Good to triumph over Evil in order to feel good drama
> has been perpetrated. But I know lots of people who do, and they watch
> Star Trek and the Money Keeps Rolling In.
>
> -- Penny "I am not Spock" Dreadful
Oops, didn't really think you were a trekkie Penny. But point taken. I'm
the one who like ST:TNG.
I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's comment
'What happened in the story?'
'The good ended happily, and the bad unhappily; that's what fiction means'.
At one level it is the silly comment of a silly woman with pretensions to
be a romantic novelist - Miss Prism, who speaks the line. At another level
it is a knowing joke for the cynical late-Victorian audience to the play.
But underneath I think it's a sad comment from someone (i.e. Wilde himself)
who's goodness was no defence against unhappiness. Is it a joke about the
conventions of fiction, or about the dirtiness of real life?
Anyway B7 seems quite a lively reposte to Wilde's theory.
'The good end happily? Not in this fiction, mate.'
Alison
------------------------------
Date: 09 Dec 1998 11:10:15 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <qdtcall@esavionics.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] ADMIN: List downtime
Message-ID: <is90ghwrqw.fsf@godzilla.kiere.ericsson.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Sometime in the next 36 hours or so there's going to be work done on
the cooling system in Lysator's machine room. This will probably mean
that we have to shut off the mailserver, which will in turn mean that
the list is going to be rather silent for a time. Barring disasters,
we should be back online sometime Thursday night.
--
Calle Dybedahl, qdtcall@esavionics.se, http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/
"I came out of that meeting so full of enthusiasm that I spent the
next two hours updating my resume" -- Paul Tomblin
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:48:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.981209113219.6791B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Alison said:
>I've been thinking lately about what they call the 'Whig view of history'
>The rough idea is that Whigs see history as progress ('things can only
>get better') they believe in reason and meritocracy. The contrast is with
>'Tories' who see history as retreat, are pessimistic about reason, and
>believe in established power relations.
Oddly enough, this is something I've been thinking about recently as well! It's
almost as if we talk to each other or something! Or are we just reading the same
books?
Not sure, as a Tory, whether I see history as retreat and don't believe in
meritocracy, but we can take this one to the spin! ;)
>Anyway, that aside, I think Star Trek is Whig SF. Enlightenment,
>redemption, science, progress. I'm not knocking it, just mentioning it.
Ooh, definitely. But what's interesting about the Whig interpretation of
history, as well, is that it also acted as a justification for empire:
bringing reason and enlightenment to benighted parts of the globe. You
don't get this (really) in 'Star Trek' (though they seem worryingly
able to chuck the Prime Directive whenever it suits). Would the B7
Federation use this idea as the rationale for its expansionism?
>The glib thing to say would be that B7 is Tory SF. However I really don't
>think it is, because it is so negative about the weaknesses and smugness
>of established powers, and relatively positive about the idea of smashing
>them up.
If not necessarily successfully! Also, Toryism (particularly as it
transmutes in the 19th century into Conservatism) puts a great deal of
primacy on the potential of individual human action: this brings out in
B7 the issue of individual resistance, but combines it with traditional
Tory cynicism about human nature.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:55:16 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other"
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.981209115023.6791C-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Rob said:
>I know B7 is supposed to be about shades of grey, but some characters
>are less grey than others. Servalan's character and motives were
>explored in some episodes, but one could make a case for saying she was
>just a greedy, evil gangster. And then the Federation itself was never
>portrayed as anything but evil.
Although I like the strong suggestion given in 'Breakdown' from Julian
Glover's character (Kane?) that Blake and crew are wrong because they are
trying to destroy the main force for order in the galaxy. This is similar
to themes explored in 'Star One': whether the destruction of something bad
is a worse evil than letting it stand, but adds the extra dimension of
whether there are circumstances in which such a powerful force is a
necessity.
I like the idea that Servalan is both committed to upholding the
Federation *and* is a greedy, evil gangster! I don't think the two are
mutually exclusive, tho' one could come up with situations in which they
were.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:06:30 +-100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: ethics
Message-ID: <01BE238D.E31026C0@cmg71700449>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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>Pat P. asked:
>>
>>What did the Allies do with Nazi research
>>on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also >destroyed, or
>>added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision?
And Tegan Brandi answered:
>No, much of the Nazi medical research was not destroyed (I'm not >sure if
>any was). The one instance I can think of off hand is that we know how
>long it takes a person to succumb to hypothermia and die. That piece >of
>information was most definitely added to Western knowledge.
>It disgusts me to know what the Nazi's went through to get that
>information, throwing Jews into freezing water and just timing it. In my
>gut, though, I cannot believe we should let those people die for nothing
>and their suffering be completely forgotten. I think it's the right
>decision to use the results of those... torture tests... for the benefit
>of all beingkind.
I don't quite see the moral dilemma here: on the one hand those nazi's (and those Japanese doctors) were downright evil and I hope as many of them as possible have been punished for what they've done. The mere thought that some of those monsters are still walking around freely makes me shiver.
On the other hand, the information about hypothermia and suchlike is now there. Information is not good or evil. It just exists, and saying that it shouldn't be used because of the way it was obtained is like saying that the furniture of nazi's shouldn't ever be sold and reused, because an evil person once used it. Using the information does no harm to anyone: the victims won't be any more or less hurt than they already were. Not using it because of some moral stance does hurt people, and those are hardly ever the people who are taking this stand. So not using this information would in fact be an immoral thing to do.
<steps off pulpit>
Wow, did I just prove that the Voyager guys did something immoral? Must be a first!
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:34:23 -0000
From: "Fifitrix" <fifitrix@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Fw: [B7L] Chain snowballs.
Message-ID: <001601be2389$66534ee0$1b649384@fms01963.unichem.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny
>the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received
>a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age.
<snip>
>Meredith Dixon
And I'll bet that you were more tolerant of it the first time you saw it.
I for one thought it was amusing and I'm not particularily tolerant of chain
letters. I think that Calle is right to set the ground rules on this but
some of the other treatment of Dangermouse has been a bit harsh.
DM - I hope you stay.
Fifitrix
------------------------------
Date: 9 Dec 1998 09:39:52 -0800
From: "Ma.James" <ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <n1298926045.86279@SSDGWY.mdc.com>
>Pat Patera wrote:
>I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang
>perfect and self-confident.
But occasionally they do something right and manage to introduce an interesting
character. Ensign Ro Laren is one of them. She is a marvelous character and
would have been a stunning addition to either of the B7 crews.
After reading a crossover story with Avon and Ro I went on a hunt for TNG eps
with this character so I could see what she was like. She turned out to be a
fascinating character. And I was delighted to see that the author of the story
was true to the character (as she was with Avon). Ro was a perfect match for
Avon I caught myself wishing she had been part of B7.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:22:17 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Oak Leaf
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1209082217-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 08 Dec, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> Mind you, Gan isn't tiresome anyway. Unless you think Cally is
> tiresome too? She was rather fond of the moral stand herself.
>
> > I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can
> > empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings:
> > Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon
> > knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's
> > laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's
> > loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity.
> > Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't
> > share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-)
>
> Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't
> make Gan stupid.
>
> (There, Judith, do I get my oak leaves now? <grin>)
You do indeed.
Kathryn Andersen is hereby awarded the Oak Leaf of the Gan Defence League for
her defence of a frequently unappreciated, but no less deserving character. The
oak leaf (for those new to the list) is chosen to represent Gan's sterling and
solid qualities, his reliability, strength and upstanding nature.
When I get to be a little old lady, Gan is the character I would rely on to help
me across the road. Gan isn't stupid. He's just average, and that's difficult
when you're surrounded by people like Avon and Jenna.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:45:22 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Gan and Avon
Message-ID: <23b29450.366ec542@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Tiger M wrote:
> Gan may not have been the brightest of the crew or particularly
intellectual,
> but he had a solid common sense that I think the crew badly needed.
I'd agree. He also had a degree of maturity that the others lacked. I'm so
glad to see Gan defenders speaking up on his behalf. He was competent and
dependable. It was Gan who ended up in the leadership position when the
London's prisoners were dumped on Cygnus Alpha. I especially liked the quiet
way he assumed that responsibility.
> I'm not so sure Avon was a genius either. I agree that he was very good in
> his area of expertise but he also did some amazingly stupid things like
> messing around with the Ultraworld.
And even in his field he wasn't the best. In SPACEFALL they mention the
person who caught him. And both Ensor and Muller appeared to have an
innovative genius with computers that Avon lacked.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:09:52 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Afenech <Fenech@onaustralia.com.au>, Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re:Servalan tape
Message-ID: <366EBCEE.E3FF6268@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pat asked re the Jacqueline Pearce in conversation tape: "Steve could
you look see if it has an identifiying marks -smile- so that we
OutWorlders might possibly get one - or - a thought- is it the same one
you have advertised on your page Judith?"
It gives the address: Maximum Power, 26 Chalsey Road, Brockley, London
SE4 1YW
I don't know who else is selling it, but I expect Horizon is.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell"
Star Wars
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:40:10 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <4If56EAqAub2EwfR@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <85c41ce6.366db5a6@aol.com>, LordRab@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 98-12-08 11:15:51 EST, msdelta@magnolia.net writes:
>
>>
>>I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on
>>posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9
>>episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot
>>points in advance.
>
>Good Point Lorna...sorry, but I thought it was a rerun, I watch the Star Trek
>stuff so rarely that I just didn't consider it night be a new episode. I hope
>we didn't ruin the story for you more than the writers already have.
>
Erm... even the reruns in the US may be on before the episode is shown
on a non-pay channel in other countries. As I know only too well after
my recent journeying back and forth across the Atlantic.
--
Julia Jones
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 20:52:23 +0000
From: JMR <jager@clara.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] HORIZON - Zine Order Department
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19981209205223.00885710@mail.clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Horizon" Club, Zine Ordering...
It has recently become obvious that a fair bit of my mail (both Horizon and
personal) has gone missing/been stolen en route to me. If you have sent in
a zine/script/NL order and not received it, there's a good chance it has
not reached me (though due to a fractured wrist I've been a little behind
with orders that DID reach me - sorry!) Due to these problems, the zine
ordering department of Horizon will be taken over by Gillian Puddle,
Rowbarns Lodge, Guildford Road, East Horsley, Surrey KT24 5RY within the
next week or so.
If you have had a problem, could you either email me within the next few
days (before the change-over), or drop Gillian a line, so that we can
attempt to establish what problems need to be sorted out. If your cheque
was dated before Aug/Sept, and hasn't been cashed, it almost certainly
didn't reach me, which makes it all the more important for you to get in
touch with one or other of us.
"Horizon" apologises for any problems and delays. Hopefully all will now
be sorted out very quickly and all orders brought up to date. I shall be
remaining on the committee, but doing jobs that don't require things to
posted to me until I can find out who's been nicking my mail!!!
Judith
J.M. Rolls
jager@clara.net
----------------
Steedophilia: The John Steed Website
<http://home.clara.net/jager/>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:59:44 +1100
From: "Afenech" <Fenech@onaustralia.com.au>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] The League of Gan appreciators - was Gan and Avon
Message-Id: <00225784332651@domain4.bigpond.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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> Tiger M wrote:
________________
> > Gan may not have been the brightest of the crew or particularly
> intellectual, but he had a solid common sense that I think the crew
badly >needed.
and Carol McC (in part) added:
____________________
> I'd agree. He also had a degree of maturity that the others lacked.
I'm so
> glad to see Gan defenders speaking up on his behalf. He was competent
and >dependable.
Though overshadowed by his rather more glittering crew mates -smile- if
you think about Gan there is much about him to admire - as Carol says he
is dependable - an invaluable asset in a small team - and loyal - another
fine quality at least to my mind, but not thoughtlessly loyal - if he
questions then you feel it is a *serious* question, one worthwhile
considering. And yes as Carol also notes competent - I find it admirable
that he manages to learn enough to be able to be left in command - as he
is in 'Shadow' - and I also admire the way he patiently counters the
questioning of his competence as the others prepare to teleport - he is
far from stupid - just, it seems to me anyway, uneducated - but given the
chance he learns very well. I also like the caring side of him, the side
that assumed reponsibility for medical matters. And, just my perception,
there is a quiet goodness about him that I find very attractive.
Pat F
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:19:34 EST
From: LordRab@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character)
Message-ID: <15c14939.366f21a6@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-12-08 21:05:37 EST, kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes:
>
>I have to toss in this perfect quote I found on the net when TNG was
>but a youngster --
>"I think that (one of) TNG's problems is that it considers lacking action,
> humor and character interplay to be interchangable with cerebral (just like
> it often considers civility and lack of conflict interchangable with
> friendship)."
> - Atsushi Kanamori on rec.arts.startrek, 7 July 1991
>
>--
> _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
*******************************************************
***
YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE......
Will 7 of 9 please report to the airlock....
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Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:09:15 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character)
References: <18d3c1a4.366b055b@aol.com> <366C98A8.6BF2@geocities.com>
X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e
In-Reply-To: <366C98A8.6BF2@geocities.com>; from Pat Patera on Mon, Dec 07,
1998 at 07:10:32PM -0800
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Still haven't caught up on months of List stuff, gave up and started
reading recent postings, and saw:
On Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 07:10:32PM -0800, Pat Patera wrote:
> LordRab@aol.com wrote:
> > All I could think of was a line from my favorite Blake's 7 character
> > (surprise!!!! It's Kerr Avon):
> > "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others"
> Gan steps forward now and again, as he did in Shadow, to take a moral
> stand. And look how tiresome it made him.
Oi! No fair. Did not! (Kathryn jumps up and down)
Blake takes a moral stand (the Federation is evil, I will destroy it)
and he is not tiresome, yet when Gan takes a moral stand, he is?
*If* it were true that Gan was tiresome, then it must be some other
factor, rather than "taking a moral stand" that makes him so.
A lack of anger, perhaps. Or a lack of charisma. But not the moral
stand itself.
Mind you, Gan isn't tiresome anyway. Unless you think Cally is
tiresome too? She was rather fond of the moral stand herself.
> I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can
> empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings:
> Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon
> knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's
> laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's
> loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity.
> Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't
> share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-)
Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't
make Gan stupid.
(There, Judith, do I get my oak leaves now? <grin>)
> I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect
> and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only
> one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad
> case that he's nearly a cartoon.
I have to toss in this perfect quote I found on the net when TNG was
but a youngster --
"I think that (one of) TNG's problems is that it considers lacking action,
humor and character interplay to be interchangable with cerebral (just like
it often considers civility and lack of conflict interchangable with
friendship)."
- Atsushi Kanamori on rec.arts.startrek, 7 July 1991
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--part0_913252751_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:14:20 EST
From: LordRab@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <c9248d15.366f206c@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-12-08 21:02:28 EST, kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes:
>
>> I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from
>> other times by contemporary standards.
>
>Why not? They happen to be the only standards you have, the ones you
>have now. It makes just as much sense to say that what is wrong in
>one age is right in another as to say that what is wrong on a Tuesday
>is right on a Monday.
Dear Kathryn,
If this were say, the dark ages you could easily be judged in many
circles as immoral for merely knowing how to read and right instead of staying
perenially pregnant. Anyway, my real point is that we should not waste our
time judging at all.
regards,
Rab
"Let the gods sort it out, that's what we pay them for."
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
References: <10c7ee97.366cc0f4@aol.com>
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On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:02:28AM -0500, LordRab@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 98-12-07 09:21:38 EST, you write:
>
> << Kerr Avon) :
>
> "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others"
> >>
>
> Nice line! Though the episode of Voyager you mention is one I actually
> almost liked. They may have chosen the "PC" solution, but I didn't get the
> feel that anyone was happy with the outcome.
> So what would the B7 folks have done? Avon, as you pointed, probably
would
> have kept the data. What of the others? Deborah Rose >>
>
>
> I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from
> other times by contemporary standards.
Why not? They happen to be the only standards you have, the ones you
have now. It makes just as much sense to say that what is wrong in
one age is right in another as to say that what is wrong on a Tuesday
is right on a Monday. Surely a vegetarian who is one for moral
reasons, thinks that animals suffered just as much when eaten in the
12th century as they do now, and therefore it is just as wrong to do, no
matter when in history you happen to be. If he had been transported
back in time to the 12th century, he wouldn't suddenly start eating
meat, would he?
(Sorry, I've been reading G. K. Chesterson recently. (-8 )
> Rather than say what I think the B7
> folks would have done I'll say what I would have had them do ( After all,
they
> are fictional characters and at the mercy of writers, heh heh ).
Not if the writer actually listens to the characters, as all good
writers do. In that case, the writer is at the mercy of the
characters.
> In that
> future, people would have accepted that most of our medical data has usually
> been obtained from experimenting on live prisoners, albeit creatures
slightly
> lower on the food chain than us,
Well, getting back to the original question, as to how the characters
would react to questionable data...
Yes, Avon would have kept the data. And would have argued with Blake
about it. Blake would have wanted to destroy it, for his usual
sentimental reasons. Cally, perhaps, would have wanted to keep it,
for a different moral reason: to redeem the suffering that those
prisoners went through. That is, if the data were destroyed, then
they went through all that suffering for absolutely nothing. But if
the data could be used for good, to save other people, then that is a
small repayment for their pain, making good come out of evil. Or
maybe it would be Gan who comes up with that argument. Perhaps not:
he himself has suffered from Federation medical experiments himself,
that would probably give him a bias -- or it could give him an
insight, from the prisoner point of view.
Well, gotta go!
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Blake is sitting up in a tree. Travis is sitting up in another tree.
Unless they're planning to throw nuts at one another, I don't see
much of a fight developing before it gets light."
-- Kerr Avon (Blake's 7: Duel [A8])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--part0_913252461_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:42:18 EST
From: LordRab@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <46dc41d9.366f26fa@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-12-09 12:42:38 EST, ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com writes:
>>Pat Patera wrote:
>>I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang
>>perfect and self-confident.
>
>But occasionally they do something right and manage to introduce an
>interesting
>character. Ensign Ro Laren is one of them. She is a marvelous character and
>would have been a stunning addition to either of the B7 crews.
>
>After reading a crossover story with Avon and Ro I went on a hunt for TNG eps
>with this character so I could see what she was like. She turned out to be a
>fascinating character. And I was delighted to see that the author of the
>story
>was true to the character (as she was with Avon). Ro was a perfect match for
>Avon I caught myself wishing she had been part of B7.
Synchronicity...
I thoROughly agree. Of all the Star Trek characters Ensign Ro (Michelle
Forbes) has been for me the most intriguing (ok, Spock can stay too). In her
farewell episode her moral dilemma ends in a delightfully uncharacteristic way
for Star Trek (I won't spoil it for those who have not seen it). In fact,
during a recent bout of fancy in which I win the lottery and finance the Big
Screen version of Blake's 7 and Jacquline Pearce is sadly unavailable to play
Servelan, Michelle Forbes is cast in the part opposite.....Kevin Spacey as
Vila......Gary Oldman as Avon.....well I will let you all finish the casting
call, just leave a part for me.
cheers,
Rab
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Date: 9 Dec 1998 09:39:52 -0800
From: "Ma.James" <ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.0.0
Subject: [B7L] A New Character
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>Pat Patera wrote:
>I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang
>perfect and self-confident.
But occasionally they do something right and manage to introduce an
interesting
character. Ensign Ro Laren is one of them. She is a marvelous character and
would have been a stunning addition to either of the B7 crews.
After reading a crossover story with Avon and Ro I went on a hunt for TNG eps
with this character so I could see what she was like. She turned out to be a
fascinating character. And I was delighted to see that the author of the
story
was true to the character (as she was with Avon). Ro was a perfect match for
Avon I caught myself wishing she had been part of B7.
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