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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 42
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support
Re: [B7L] Vila as a god
[B7L] Re: Where are people?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
[B7L]Monkey
[B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness
[b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting
Re: [B7L] authors and such
[B7L] Blake and leadership
Re: [B7L]Monkey
[B7L] Re: Where are People?
Re: [B7L]Monkey
Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting
[B7L] Different Generations
Re: [B7L] The Cult Files
Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Re: [B7L] Vila as god
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
[B7L] Tarrant
Re: [B7L] Blake and leadership
Re: Re: [B7L] Howdy..Another Houston TX Blake fan here
unsubsrcibe
Remove
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Re: [B7L] Re: Where are people?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Re: [B7L]Monkey
Re: [B7L] Vila as a god
[B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
[B7L] authors
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:52:17 -0800
From: Luxueil <jlv@halcyon.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support
Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980210215217.008034c0@mail.halcyon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:51 AM 2/11/98 +1000, Pat Fenech wrote:
> I would like to have seen what
>Blake might have accomplished at the head of his 'rabble' :) If Nelson
>Mandela could walk from Robin Island into the office of President of South
>Africa Blake might have accomplished something similar.
Pat, I think you left out Avon's own scenario (in Pressure Point):
-------------------------
A: If we succeed, if we destroy Control, the Federation will be at
its
weakest. It will be more vulnerable than it has been for centuries. The
revolt
in the Outer Worlds will grow. The resistance movements on Earth will
launch an
all out attack to destroy the Federation. They will need unifying. They will
need a leader. You will be the natural choice.
B: Possibly.
A: Don't be modest, Blake. You are the only one that they would all
follow. You would have no choice. You would have to stay on Earth and
organize
the revolt.
B: If there's no other way.
--------------------------
(The biggest evidence, for me, of Blake's charisma, is the fact that the
crew stay with him. Any of them could have left at any time, at any time
they could have thrown him out the airlock (or Avon, for that matter) and
they don't. Avon put it this way, 'Not very bright, but loyal'.)
Personally, I don't think Blake wanted the presidency at all. Blake isn't
the man he was; for all we know, he might not remember *how* he was. He can
review vistapes that Orac finds, of banned footage of himself and the
rebels before the first mind-wipe, but especially after 'Voice', he can't
trust his own grey matter. He shows no interest in going down to planets
and drumming up business, or rousing the rabble. In reality, he's been dead
for over 4 years, ever since they captured him the first time. The Fed
stole his life, his memories, his personality, and his public persona from
him, and perverted all of them. Now each second is borrowed from his life
that shouldn't be, and thus lends an urgency to his quest.
His sole purpose is to destroy the Federation, not to heal it, or fix it,
or merely rid it of creatures like Travis and Servalan. The only time he
even makes a global statement, about 'when free men can think and speak',
he's still recovering his memories, he hasn't seen Cygnus Alpha, nor has he
taken possesion of the Liberator; so I think a case can be made that that
was a-typical of him, or at least of the Blake we come to know.
The popular image of him was probably not accurate, most likely a blend of
what people remembered about him and news of the Liberator's activities.
Especially by StarOne, I rather doubt he'd actually get much popular
support, if he'd told the masses what he was trying to do. Fortunately, he
didn't, and was able to hold off the aliens until the Fed fighting forces
arrived.
Nicole, jlv@halcyon.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Three candles shine from a noble heart:
Justice with mercy, truth with compassion, excellence with humility.
------------------------------
Date: 11 Feb 1998 08:26:15 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <qdtcall@esavionics.se>
To: B7-list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god
Message-ID: <iszpjytxew.fsf@godzilla.kiere.ericsson.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Nicola Collie <nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz> writes:
> >Tripitaka is certainly Cally (later version) if he/she's anyone.
> _That's_ the name I was trying to remember - wasn't sie some sort of
> mystic that Monkey was supposed to escort somewhere
Tripitaka is the name of the closest thing Buddhism has to holy
books, as far as I know. And in all the versions of the legend of King
Monkey that I've ever read, they're going to the Western Heaven to
fetch those books.
--
Calle Dybedahl, UNIX Sysadmin
qdtcall@esavionics.se http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:15:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@eng.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Where are people?
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.980211111326.9055B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
I'm based in Cambridge (England) for those in this neck of the woods.
I used to visit Sheffield pretty frequently (my sister lived there). Is
the Sheffield Space Centre on The Wicker still going strong? That was the
shop that mailed me 'Avon: A Terrible Aspect' and a bunch of Horizon
newsletters and hence was responsible for turning me into a B7 addict
again!
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:43:34 +0000 (GMT)
From: Rob Clother <rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk>
To: B7 mailing list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.980211102423.20687A-100000@mobius>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Sorry, I meant heroism in terms of the _values_ of a hero, not the
> courage of one. Tarrant never lacked for courage, but he was a bully to
> Vila. (Avon bullied Vila,too, but in a more friendly way, usually. And
> Avon never claimed to have good values).
Strip away Avon's rhetoric, and his attitude to Vila was very protective.
They trusted each other deeply in their own way, which is why it came as
such a shock to Vila when Avon nearly murdered him. In fact, if Avon
really did any bullying, Tarrant was the object rather than Vila. Avon
never missed an opportunity to show Tarrant up for a trigger-happy maniac,
while delighting in his own intellectual superiority. In Blake's company,
without Avon's persistent subtle put-downs, I agree that Tarrant would
have been a very different character. As it was, Avon brought out the
worst aspects of his personality, and it is much easier to dislike him for
that than it is to recognise the contributions he made to the crew.
Cheers,
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:22:55 GMT
From: "Jane Elizabeth Macdonald" <J.E.Macdonald1@student.derby.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L]Monkey
Message-ID: <2B0A1241E9@sdk1.derby.ac.uk>
Tom Forsyth wrote:-
> Well, the only thing I know about Monkey is from the very silly (but
> excellent) series they used to show over here (UK, 1984-ish).
> P.S. I do hope somebody else knows what I'm on about - cultural milestones
> like Monkey can't have missed _all_ the people on this list.
I remember watching Monkey, so there are at least two of us.
Cylan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:29:25 +1000
From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris <parallax@wire.net.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211222925.007c2930@wire.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sue said:
>This is so good and so on the money I wish I'd said it.
Heh heh... quick, grab a time machine, nip back a week then sue me for
plagiarism.
Narrelle "Loves 'em all" Harris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris
parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax
"Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit;
by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:37:26 +1000
From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris <parallax@wire.net.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210193726.007b2100@wire.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Iain said:
>I sometimes find Paul's performances frustrating. Sometimes he shows nice
>subtle touches, then a few minutes later he's chewing the scenery. This
>latter behaviour seemed to get more pronounced as the series went on.
>
>He is often very good at bringing a lot out of the lines, in terms of
>playing the subtext rather than the text, and that's part of what makes
>Avon such an intriguing character. But in terms of acting skill, I would
>rate both Michael and Gareth higher (and Jackie, come to that - she even
>makes her scenes in "Animals" watchable).
I have seen Paul on stage (In 'Trap for a Lonely Man'), though not Michael,
and have probably seen more of Paul in tv roles than Michael too.
The sense I get from what I *have* seen is that Michael may be a more
*disciplined* actor, and Gareth I suspect will also come under this category.
I think Paul is very talented and has done both very subtle and very hammy
work. He strikes me as the kind of actor who really shines when he is
working with a strong director and/or a strong cast/performer. On stage,
actors feed off one another (and from the kind of guidance they get from a
director) intensely.
I have been fascinated watching plays sometimes to see how an actor can do
a fairly pedestrian job with one cast member, and then a different person
comes on and the actor *changes* - stands out more, is more convincing,
more subtle, more involved, because of the person they are playing
opposite. Or seen an actor in plays directed by different people - there
can be such a difference in performance based on how much
guidance/discipline has been involved.
Other people out there have been involved in theatre - do your experiences
tally with my own?
Narrelle
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris
parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax
"Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit;
by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 02:16:27 -0500 (EST)
From: adering@ziplink.net (Alex Dering)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] authors and such
Message-Id: <v01000000b1002f58ed28@[208.196.104.188]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Some old authors are coming up in conversation...
I ran across the Doc Smith books (at least the first one) the other day at
the bookstore at which I work. It had been reissued, with the "Doc" portion
of his name removed (just E.E. Smith - I think he might even have had his
given names spelled out). In either case, I just rolled my eyes because I
tried to get through them once and just couldn't stand it. Similarly, L.
Ron's books have a similar fate it seems on the shelf. Apparently, (I read
this in the New York Times, so we'll have to take it as suspect) the
Scientologists would go in, buy Hubbard's books in sufficient numbers to
make the computer programs order additional copies. Then, the original
copies would be returned. The store would then have a tremendous overload
of books. Most of these would be stripped after a while (the cover is torn
off and returned for credit, the remainder of the book is destroyed). Then
the whole thing would start up again. By doing this a sufficient number of
times, with a sufficient number of people, you would eventually arrive at
the top of the NY Times best-seller list. The list only keeps track of how
many copies are ordered, not how many are sold, and remain sold.
As to Lord of The Rings, the first time I read it, I got almost to the end
of the end of the last book. Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, with Precious tempting
Sam, maybe thirty pages to the end, and I had to put it aside (school work,
I was in my last semester as an undergraduate). When I got back to it, I
had completely lost the thread of the story. I finally got around to
rereading it about four months ago. Thank God I will never have to read it
again. I found C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia much more entertaining. I
don't think one should have to learn a whole new set of languages in order
to follow a story, as one is forced to with Lord of the Rings.
And, as an addendum, I read Avon: A Terrible Aspect, and I didn't think it
was as bad as many people say. I won't say it was the next replacement for
Dostoyevski, but, well, it had a very nice cover. Does anyone know where I
can find copies of those books which are supposed to take place PGP? The
ones which the authors didn't have permission for, and which I would just
like to read so that I can see what the closest "canonical" version is?
And just so you all know, it rained today in Manhattan and I didn't bring
my umbrella. So I had a moist kind of day...
And as to where to find Blake's 7 videos. Here in the US the Columbia House
people (those of the 12 albums for a penny) have many Sci-Fi series
available for home video (including Dr. Who, and Space: 1999, but not
including Blake's 7.) Perhaps if enough of us call up, they'll organize it.
I have about half of the Blake's 7 series on the BFS Video label. I found
them at a discount bookstore in Somerville, Massachusetts, quite
serendipitously, going for something like $4 a piece. I would have bought
them all if they were offered, but only some of the titles were there. So
now I prowl the video stores, tossing the bargain bins, hoping against hope
to get the rest.
A recent thread about the actors makes me wonder, does anyone have any
details of the personal lives of the actors? I don't mean anything gruesome
(i.e. Michael Keating: The secret life of a wife-swapping atheist) but just
the ordinary little details. I'm trying to imagine Jacqueline Pearce
married, sitting at the kitchen table, having toast and coffee with her
spouse before they both start their days. Anything more substantial than my
delusions?
Alex
----------------------------------------
Life is short, art long, opportunity
fleeting, experience treacherous, and
judgement difficult.
-- Hippocrates --
----------------------------------------
website: http://www.ziplink.net/~adering
----------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:02:40 +1000
From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris <parallax@wire.net.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Blake and leadership
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211230240.007ba9c0@wire.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Reading these posts about Blake's leadership, and Catharine's post saying:
>He knew that his band of rebels was reluctant at best. If he did
>not lead them, they wouldn't go at all, with the possible exception of
>Cally.
I was suddenly reminded of Tim's common lament. When, in a group of
people, no-one knows what they want to do or where they want to go, Tim
will make a suggestion. Since he's the only one with a positive idea for
anything at all, everyone goes along. ANd then, if they don't like the
destination, they bitch about how pushy he is and how much they hated his
decision.
Maybe this is Blake's problem. He's the only one prepared to make any
decisions, and everyone says "Yeah, ok" and then bitch about it, but none
of them are willing to make any kind of decision on their own.
This is just a throwaway observation inspired by Catharine's comment. Does
anyone else see any relevance in it?
Narrelle
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris
parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax
"Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit;
by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:47:27 GMT0BST
From: "Ruth Imeson" <UAZRJI@uan1.library.nottingham.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Monkey
Message-ID: <16860151DCD@uan1.library.nottingham.ac.uk>
Cylan wrote:
>
> I remember watching Monkey, so there are at least two of us.
>
Make that 3 of us. Monkey was something of a cultural highlight in my
family. <g>
For those who have never experienced this wonder, Bravo is reshowing
the series (in the UK).
Ruth
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:35:52 GMT
From: "Jane Elizabeth Macdonald" <J.E.Macdonald1@student.derby.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Where are People?
Message-ID: <13409C3F5F@sdk1.derby.ac.uk>
>>Jenni asked asking about B7 fans living near Altringham.
>>As a newcomer, I'd also be interested to know where people are based, with a
>>view to meeting up at some future date.
>>I think UK listees will be easier to meet up with.
>>I am living and working in Sheffield. Anyone live nearby?
>Jay posted
>Hi, I'm a newcomer too, and also would like to know where people are based,
> both in the US and UK. I currently live in northern California, but I'm
> British and try to get back there as often as I can (I'm originally from
> Bedfordshire).
>
> I've been a fan of B7 ever since it was first shown. My favourite is, of
> course Avon.
I'm also a newcomer. I live in Derby, England, and I started watching Blake's
7 when the original series 1st came out. My favorite character is is
Avon too.
Cylan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:50:03 -0000
From: "Jenni-Alison" <jenni-alison@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Monkey
Message-Id: <199802111253.NAA23224@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ruth wrote
>
> Cylan wrote:
> >
> > I remember watching Monkey, so there are at least two of us.
> >
>
> Make that 3 of us. Monkey was something of a cultural highlight in
my
> family. <g>
>
> For those who have never experienced this wonder, Bravo is
reshowing
> the series (in the UK).
>
> Ruth
I remember it vaguely, but only Monkey himself, and the beginning
credits and theme tune. Oh no, now it's in my head, and I'll sing it
all day!
Jenni
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:59:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980211123529.10325B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Narrelle Harris wrote:
> Iain said:
> >I sometimes find Paul's performances frustrating. Sometimes he shows nice
> >subtle touches, then a few minutes later he's chewing the scenery. This
> >latter behaviour seemed to get more pronounced as the series went on.
> >
> >He is often very good at bringing a lot out of the lines, in terms of
> >playing the subtext rather than the text, and that's part of what makes
> >Avon such an intriguing character. But in terms of acting skill, I would
> >rate both Michael and Gareth higher (and Jackie, come to that - she even
> >makes her scenes in "Animals" watchable).
>
> I have seen Paul on stage (In 'Trap for a Lonely Man'), though not Michael,
> and have probably seen more of Paul in tv roles than Michael too.
>
> The sense I get from what I *have* seen is that Michael may be a more
> *disciplined* actor, and Gareth I suspect will also come under this category.
>
> I think Paul is very talented and has done both very subtle and very hammy
> work. He strikes me as the kind of actor who really shines when he is
> working with a strong director and/or a strong cast/performer. On stage,
> actors feed off one another (and from the kind of guidance they get from a
> director) intensely.
>
> I have been fascinated watching plays sometimes to see how an actor can do
> a fairly pedestrian job with one cast member, and then a different person
> comes on and the actor *changes* - stands out more, is more convincing,
> more subtle, more involved, because of the person they are playing
> opposite. Or seen an actor in plays directed by different people - there
> can be such a difference in performance based on how much
> guidance/discipline has been involved.
>
> Other people out there have been involved in theatre - do your experiences
> tally with my own?
Oh yes. Playing opposite a good actor bring your own performance up a
gear, and if the two actors can get into a positive-feedback loop you can
get two really strong performances. The off-stage relationship between the
actors is also a factor: if you get on well with someone, you can take
bigger risks with them on stage - and also, you are likely to be on each
other's wavelength, and respond well to what the other person does. Gareth
and Paul are a case in point.
The director is also crucial. "The Inside Story" tells of a very hostile
relationship between Brian Croucher and George Spenton-Foster, and it
really shows on screen. I think I'm in a minority in that I like
Croucher's Travis, but his portrayal really is bad in the Spenton-Foster
episodes, I think because the actor and director were at loggerheads.
The one thing you haven't touched on is rehearsal. Often you reach a stage
in the rehearsal process where everyone knows what they're doing, what
they're saying and it seems to reach a plateau where continued rehearsals
don't add much. But then, by going through it again and again, the cast as
a whole suddenly jumps up to a whole new level, the characterisations
become more subtle, the relationships fit together more naturally, and
basically it just gets better.
Rehearsal schedules in B7 were notoriously short-to-non-existant,
and some of the coarseness one sometimes sees in the acting would have
been smoothed out by more rehearsal. You can see this especially in Paul
(but in the others too). The delivery and reaction portrays complex and
interesting characterisation, but it's sometimes just a bit too mannered,
too "actory", and you get the feeling that it hadn't been rehearsed enough
for all the bits to fit smoothly into place. Still, at least all the
complexities are there, which is much more interesting than a smooth and
polished portrayal of bland nothingness.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +0000
From: Jill Beach <jillb@mcmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Different Generations
Message-ID: <34E1A48E.2BBB@mcmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I have been a fan of Blakes 7 since the first episodes, when it was
shown on sky tv my children became big fans,now it is on again on Sunday
morning and my grandson thinks it is great.What is it about this series
that it can hold the interest of three generations.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:37:01 -0700
From: Patricia Roberts <Patricia.Roberts@lmco.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (IPM Return requested) (Receipt notification requested)
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Cult Files
Message-id:
<0677D34E1B78CB9A*/c=us/admd=telemail/prmd=lmco/o=ems/ou=ccmail/s=Roberts/g=Patricia/@MHS>
Content-return: Allowed
Content-identifier: 0677D34E1B78CB9A
Hi,
I too just received my copy of The Cult Files.
I ordered via CDnow, an on-line outlet for CDs, videos, etc. They are
an excellent source and very inexpensive.
I always pay by check as I don't want to give out any credit cards
over the Internet.
I've ordered many videos from them, everything is discounted.
So checkout CDnow.com and see for yourself.
Pat
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:53:55 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support
Message-ID: <199802111453.JAA24862@yfn.ysu.edu>
Pat Fenech wrote:
>Particularly interesting, at least for me, is the question of whether or not
>he had any popular support for what he was doing. And so I thought to have a
>word, or several, about it :) as thinking about it I seem to recall there
>being some evidence within the series that he did. And to test my memory I
>went looking to see what is to be found... and discovered quite a bit.
Pat, a thousand thanks for such a detailed and factual report. I really
appreciate the time and thought that went into this. The canonical
references combined with your summaries provide all the documentation
that a fan could ask for.
>This suggests strongly that there was popular interest in
>Blake and his opposition to the Federation and further that the interest was
>positive and large enough to be of some considerable worry to the
>Administration. Also interesting are the lengths they are all prepared to go
>to stop Blake. Servalan seems willing to provide Travis with whatever he
>feels he needs to 'seek-locate-destroy' Blake and as the series progressed
>we saw that she continued to do so.
We also saw them go to considerable trouble to eradicate and repress
other rebellious hotspots: development of the Avalon android, plan
to bring down Kasabi's group, the solium bomb to keep the population
of Albian in line. And after Blake disappeared, rebellion continued
to be a problem: the attempted coup in RUMOURS, development and
employment of Pylene 50 to subdue rebellious planets.
>It seems to me, though I may be misinterpreting, that some of the
>discussion anyway seems to be heading towards correlating whether Blake was
>justified in what he did with evidence of popular support. I don't know that
>I would necessarily agree that one is *the* justification for the other.
That's a good point. There have been strong, popular leaders whose
actions can't be considered moral.
Carol McCoy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:23:21 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Rob Clother <rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk>
CC: B7 mailing list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <34E1C268.4986@jps.net>
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> Strip away Avon's rhetoric, and his attitude to Vila was very protective.
> They trusted each other deeply in their own way, which is why it came as
> such a shock to Vila when Avon nearly murdered him. In fact, if Avon
> really did any bullying, Tarrant was the object rather than Vila. Avon
> never missed an opportunity to show Tarrant up for a trigger-happy maniac,
> while delighting in his own intellectual superiority. In Blake's company,
> without Avon's persistent subtle put-downs, I agree that Tarrant would
> have been a very different character. As it was, Avon brought out the
> worst aspects of his personality, and it is much easier to dislike him for
> that than it is to recognise the contributions he made to the crew.
>
> Cheers,
> Rob
Yes, I agree that the outer layer of antagonism on the Avon/Vila
relationship was a sham. Like two school boys who feel like it's more
manly to squabble. The bullying I refer to is things like, once, when
Vila had just put-down Avon, Avon walked by him, making a point of
squeezing so close, Vila has to kind of move aside. Alpha male behavior,
really.
Trouble is Avon and Tarrant are both Alphas, and cannot tolerate each
other. Avon's showing up of Tarrant is something Tarrant keeps pushing
him to do. "I'm younger and I'm faster." If Kerr doesn't keep a strong
hand with Tarrant, goodness knows what the cocky boy will do.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:18:06 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as god
Message-ID: <199802111518.KAA26171@yfn.ysu.edu>
Nicola quotes Tom (I'm pretty sure) then adds a warning:
>>he's more Pigsy, really. Monkey definately reminds me of Tarrant - bold,
>>brashful and totally out of his depth half the time.
>Quick, hide! I hear the Tarrant Nostra have spies everywhere! :-)
It's true that the Tarrant Nostra is everywhere. And we'd bring Tom
to task for his blatant lack of respect except we know he gets off on
being whupped. ;-)
But seriously, the "totally out of his depth half the time" is quite
an exaggeration. If folks would like to get particular, rather than
make generalizations, I know I can come up with more than three
examples of Tarrant swimming prettily for every example of him
sinking like a stone. And I could also provide many examples of
when other members of the crew were having trouble keeping their
heads above water. When it comes down to canon and facts, the
derogatory images of Tarrant as incompetent, unheroic, etc. simply
don't hold up. He made no more mistakes than any of the others.
I think it always boils down to Avon's astute comment that Tarrant
is "young, brave, and handsome" and some people simply find that
annoying.
Carol McCoy
--KAA25704.887209834/yfn.ysu.edu--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:43:06 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <199802111543.KAA27063@yfn.ysu.edu>
Avona wrote:
>Sorry, I meant heroism in terms of the _values_ of a hero, not the
>courage of one. Tarrant never lacked for courage, but he was a bully to
>Vila. (Avon bullied Vila,too, but in a more friendly way, usually. And
>Avon never claimed to have good values).
The "more friendly way" is a rather subjective call. I have to agree
with Lorna that Tarrant's calling Vila to task was usually more
justified (Vila was a member of the crew and should have been carrying
his share of the work/danger load) than some of Avon's bullying.
The Tarrant-bullying of Vila that is most often cited is "City at
the Edge of the World." Tarrant wasn't just having a kick-Vila
moment. He was trying to get weaponary crystals that would
benefit all of them. Compare that to when Avon kicked or kneed
Vila in "Hostage." The only motivation was pure annoyance.
As Lorna said, everyone mistreated Vila at times.
>And as far as manipulating people goes, once again, Avon was
>manipulative, yes, but he let it be knnown he was manipulative.
Now let me see if I understand this correctly. Avon was open
and honest about being manipulative so it was more acceptable
than say when Blake was subtly manipulative. And you also
seemed to imply that Tarrant's open heroics weren't as
admirable as Avon's heroics because Avon never claimed to be
hero.
Am I the only one who sees a double standard here? Whichever
way Avon leans is the right way.
>"Beyond Good and Evil"... he rejects the morals that society conforms
>to, but has his own moral code that is more personally meanful. He
>cannot be a hypocrit, because he lives by self-defined values with
>self-defined limits. Blake and Tarrant are modelled on traditional
>heores, and don't always meet the pre-set standards. Once again, is
>anyone familiar enough with Nietzche's writings to discuss this?
I didn't see that either Blake or Tarrant confirmed to the morals
of society. You have to remember that their society isn't our
society. Tarrant is a sore thumb hero in the Federation universe.
He has his own set of moral values and won't be bullied or mocked
into changing them. His world is a horrible place where
nastiness abounds, but he continually behaves as if that weren't
the case.
Carol McCoy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:50:24 +0000 ("GMT)
From: Rob Clother <rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk>
To: B7 mailing list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Tarrant
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.96.980211154636.6644A-100000@pde4>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> I think it always boils down to Avon's astute comment that Tarrant
> is "young, brave, and handsome" and some people simply find that
> annoying.
He's also got all the tact and sensitivity of a brick through your front
window (telling you your mother has died). Which is another thing people
find annoying.
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:54:50 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake and leadership
Message-ID: <199802111554.KAA27513@yfn.ysu.edu>
Narrelle wrote:
>I was suddenly reminded of Tim's common lament. When, in a group of
>people, no-one knows what they want to do or where they want to go, Tim
>will make a suggestion. Since he's the only one with a positive idea for
>anything at all, everyone goes along. ANd then, if they don't like the
>destination, they bitch about how pushy he is and how much they hated his
>decision.
That very much describes how I see "City at the Edge of the
World." Tarrant seems to be the only one making an effort to get
the crystals. "the only positive idea" But after the fact, Avon
and Cally complain about how he handled the matter.
>This is just a throwaway observation inspired by Catharine's comment. Does
>anyone else see any relevance in it?
I see relevance. I'm not familiar enough with 1st-2nd season to relate
it to criticisms of Blake, but I've seen it happen in real life and I've
seen it happen in third season.
Carol McCoy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:50:48 EST
From: MLytle@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Howdy..Another Houston TX Blake fan here
Message-ID: <b6cd79fc.34e1c8da@aol.com>
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>>Except my local PBS station, who have quit showing both B7 and Dr. Who >AND
>>Red Dwarf!
>Well, in a way you can count yourself lucky, because none of those has ever
>run (to my knowledge) in this state. And probably never will, either. No,
>we mostly get endless repeats of Allo, Allo and Are You Being Served.>>
We have the same problem here in Michigan. In fact, when I first found this
newsgroup, I hadn't seen a B7 episode in almost 10 years!! (Pause here for
assorted sympathetic exclamations) The tapes that I had recorded before we
moved disappeared in transit. Anyway, I have made a few purchases at Borders
since, and am completely enjoying B7 again.
Maggie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:08:18 -0800
From: SKAFLOC@ix.netcom.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
CC: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Subject: unsubsrcibe
Message-ID: <34E1CCF1.6966@ix.netcom.com>
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unsubsrcibe
PLEEEEEZZE!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:08:22 -0800
From: SKAFLOC@ix.netcom.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
CC: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Remove
Message-ID: <34E1CCF4.143F@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Remove
PLEEEEEZZE!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:52:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Luxueil <jlv@halcyon.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.96.980211083047.8098A-100000@coho.halcyon.com>
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I've read thru this thread, and still, in response to the thread subject
header, I do not believe we ever see Tarrant as 'selfish'.
When he first boarded the Liberator, he was alone, and the cutthroats that
subsequently boarded were not people he could respect. Still, his
activities there were to survive; when he finds allies, he immediately
works with them against the 'baddies', and then throws his lot in with
them. I can interpret his voluntary subordination to Avon almost as relief
that he can do what he does best - pilot the ship - and not have to feel
totally responsible for the crew (altho he tends to). Tarrant is unusual,
in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team.
Nicole
--------------------------------------------------------
Three candles shine from a noble heart:
Justice with mercy, truth with compassion, excellence with humility
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:03:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Where are people?
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980211130019.10325C-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Una McCormack wrote:
> I'm based in Cambridge (England) for those in this neck of the woods.
So am I! Any other Cambridge bods around here? (Come on, there must be,
this town is full of sad geeks, sorry, cultured and technically literate
intellectuals.)
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:16:59 +0000 ("GMT)
From: Rob Clother <rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk>
To: B7 mailing list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.96.980211171159.6877A-100000@pde4>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> I've read thru this thread, and still, in response to the thread subject
> header, I do not believe we ever see Tarrant as 'selfish'.
Agreed. Heroic or selfish is not a question with any teeth: Tarrant is
unquestionably the former.
> Tarrant is unusual, in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team.
But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team.
Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader,
that's all.
Rob
PS And, of course, Blake was more astute than the two of them put
together. As a leader, that is.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:24:24 -0000
From: "Heather Smith" <Heather.Smith@btinternet.com>
To: "Blake's 7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-Id: <E0y2g1C-0002Kp-00@snow.btinternet.com>
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Carol wrote:
> City at the Edge of the World: Avon wants to leave when it is
> growing dark. Tarrant argues they should stay and find Vila.
Um, and at the beginning of the episode he threatens to throw Vila off the
ship, saying that 'you're no use to me'. not exactly heroic behaviour.
Maybe he was just feeling guilty when he wants to look for Vila.
Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith
'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish'
-The fourth Doctor
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:17:08 -0000
From: "Heather Smith" <Heather.Smith@btinternet.com>
To: "Blake's 7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Monkey
Message-Id: <E0y2fu7-0006gW-00@snow.btinternet.com>
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At least five of us, I used to be on the Monkey mailing list!
Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith
'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish'
-The fourth Doctor
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:33:01 -0000
From: "Heather Smith" <Heather.Smith@btinternet.com>
To: "Blake's 7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god
Message-Id: <E0y2g9U-0006bR-00@snow.btinternet.com>
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Calle wrote:
> Tripitaka is the name of the closest thing Buddhism has to holy
> books, as far as I know. And in all the versions of the legend of King
> Monkey that I've ever read, they're going to the Western Heaven to
> fetch those books.
Yes, but in the TV series Tripitaka is a young priest, supposed to be the
one human who was truly holy. And yes, it is highly confusing that he was
a man, but played be a female actress. The English company doing the dub
into English could have made matters clearer by using a man's voice for the
character, but they chose to use a very feminine female voice. Does
anybody know quite *why* a woman was used to play the part?
Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith
'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish'
-The fourth Doctor
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:27:58 +1000
From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris <parallax@wire.net.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210192758.007b1c90@wire.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sue said:
>This is so good and so on the money I wish I'd said it.
Heh heh... quick, grab a time machine, nip back a week then sue me for
plagiarism.
Narrelle "Loves 'em all" Harris
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris
parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax
"Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit;
by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:56:28 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <199802111756.MAA02196@yfn.ysu.edu>
Heather wrote:
>Carol wrote:
>
>> City at the Edge of the World: Avon wants to leave when it is
>> growing dark. Tarrant argues they should stay and find Vila.
>
>Um, and at the beginning of the episode he threatens to throw Vila off the
>ship, saying that 'you're no use to me'. not exactly heroic behaviour.
>Maybe he was just feeling guilty when he wants to look for Vila.
He is feeling guilty. And more power to him for regretting his
mistakes and wanting to atone for them. How maybe people accept
responsibility for their mistakes? Someone puts a hand in an
operating lawn mower, gets it chopped off and sues the manu-
facturer for failing to warn him that the moving blades might
be dangerous...
Being able to admit when you are wrong is heroic behavior in my
book.
But surely you realize that it's not just guilt that prompts Tarrant
to want to stay and wait for/find Vila. Even if he had had nothing
to do with Vila's trouble, he would argue the same position. As he
does when any of shipmates need his loyalty and support in other
episodes.
Carol McCoy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:13:46 GMT
From: "Jane Elizabeth Macdonald" <J.E.Macdonald1@student.derby.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] authors
Message-ID: <2BE1673E4B@sdk1.derby.ac.uk>
Alex said
> As to Lord of The Rings, the first time I read it, I got almost to the end
> of the end of the last book. Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, with Precious tempting
> Sam, maybe thirty pages to the end, and I had to put it aside (school work,
> I was in my last semester as an undergraduate). When I got back to it, I
> had completely lost the thread of the story. I finally got around to
> rereading it about four months ago. Thank God I will never have to read it
> again. I don't think one should have to learn a whole new set of languages in order
> to follow a story, as one is forced to with Lord of the Rings.
How can you say such a thing? Lord of the Rings is one of the best
books I have ever read. I couldn't put it down.
Cylan
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:09:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Luxueil <jlv@halcyon.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
cc: B7 mailing list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-ID: <Pine.GUL.3.96.980211100257.11867A-100000@coho.halcyon.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Rob Clother wrote:
> > Tarrant is unusual, in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team.
> But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team.
> Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader,
> that's all.
I would argue that we actually never see Tarrant as 'leader' - sometimes
as a concerned member of a virtually self-managed team, where each member
can argue their own points (if they have any), but usually default to
Avon.
I think, as I stated, that what Tarrant *wants* to do is fly the ship.
He's got the training, he knows how, and might lack experience in the
leadership area, but I don't think he wants to lead the crew any more than
Avon does.
Nicole
--------------------------------------------------------
Three candles shine from a noble heart:
Justice with mercy, truth with compassion, excellence with humility
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:26:38 GMT
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?
Message-Id: <3839.9802111826@bsauasb.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
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Content-Md5: ChrIbKLirVANup/LOi9qGw==
> From jlv@halcyon.com Wed Feb 11 18:17:55 1998
>
> On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Rob Clother wrote:
> > > Tarrant is unusual, in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team.
> > But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team.
> > Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader,
> > that's all.
>
"Astute leader" are not the words that spring to my mind in connection with Avon.
> I would argue that we actually never see Tarrant as 'leader' - sometimes
> as a concerned member of a virtually self-managed team, where each member
> can argue their own points (if they have any), but usually default to
> Avon.
>
> I think, as I stated, that what Tarrant *wants* to do is fly the ship.
> He's got the training, he knows how, and might lack experience in the
> leadership area, but I don't think he wants to lead the crew any more than
> Avon does.
I think he wants to lead the crew in exactly the same sense that Avon does.
Neither of them are particularly good leaders, and neither of them has any grand
plan for the team. However, they both want to be top dog for egotistical reasons.
"Sarcophagus" illustrates this. Avon had much the same motivation when Blake was
around - the difference being Blakes consummate skill in manipulation/leadership
(take your pick), which meant he always found himself following.
Iain
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #42
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