From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #42 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/42 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 42 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support Re: [B7L] Vila as a god [B7L] Re: Where are people? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? [B7L]Monkey [B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting Re: [B7L] authors and such [B7L] Blake and leadership Re: [B7L]Monkey [B7L] Re: Where are People? Re: [B7L]Monkey Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting [B7L] Different Generations Re: [B7L] The Cult Files Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Vila as god Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? [B7L] Tarrant Re: [B7L] Blake and leadership Re: Re: [B7L] Howdy..Another Houston TX Blake fan here unsubsrcibe Remove Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Re: Where are people? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L]Monkey Re: [B7L] Vila as a god [B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? [B7L] authors Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:52:17 -0800 From: Luxueil To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980210215217.008034c0@mail.halcyon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:51 AM 2/11/98 +1000, Pat Fenech wrote: > I would like to have seen what >Blake might have accomplished at the head of his 'rabble' :) If Nelson >Mandela could walk from Robin Island into the office of President of South >Africa Blake might have accomplished something similar. Pat, I think you left out Avon's own scenario (in Pressure Point): ------------------------- A: If we succeed, if we destroy Control, the Federation will be at its weakest. It will be more vulnerable than it has been for centuries. The revolt in the Outer Worlds will grow. The resistance movements on Earth will launch an all out attack to destroy the Federation. They will need unifying. They will need a leader. You will be the natural choice. B: Possibly. A: Don't be modest, Blake. You are the only one that they would all follow. You would have no choice. You would have to stay on Earth and organize the revolt. B: If there's no other way. -------------------------- (The biggest evidence, for me, of Blake's charisma, is the fact that the crew stay with him. Any of them could have left at any time, at any time they could have thrown him out the airlock (or Avon, for that matter) and they don't. Avon put it this way, 'Not very bright, but loyal'.) Personally, I don't think Blake wanted the presidency at all. Blake isn't the man he was; for all we know, he might not remember *how* he was. He can review vistapes that Orac finds, of banned footage of himself and the rebels before the first mind-wipe, but especially after 'Voice', he can't trust his own grey matter. He shows no interest in going down to planets and drumming up business, or rousing the rabble. In reality, he's been dead for over 4 years, ever since they captured him the first time. The Fed stole his life, his memories, his personality, and his public persona from him, and perverted all of them. Now each second is borrowed from his life that shouldn't be, and thus lends an urgency to his quest. His sole purpose is to destroy the Federation, not to heal it, or fix it, or merely rid it of creatures like Travis and Servalan. The only time he even makes a global statement, about 'when free men can think and speak', he's still recovering his memories, he hasn't seen Cygnus Alpha, nor has he taken possesion of the Liberator; so I think a case can be made that that was a-typical of him, or at least of the Blake we come to know. The popular image of him was probably not accurate, most likely a blend of what people remembered about him and news of the Liberator's activities. Especially by StarOne, I rather doubt he'd actually get much popular support, if he'd told the masses what he was trying to do. Fortunately, he didn't, and was able to hold off the aliens until the Fed fighting forces arrived. Nicole, jlv@halcyon.com ------------------------------------------------------------ Three candles shine from a noble heart: Justice with mercy, truth with compassion, excellence with humility. ------------------------------ Date: 11 Feb 1998 08:26:15 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: B7-list Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Nicola Collie writes: > >Tripitaka is certainly Cally (later version) if he/she's anyone. > _That's_ the name I was trying to remember - wasn't sie some sort of > mystic that Monkey was supposed to escort somewhere Tripitaka is the name of the closest thing Buddhism has to holy books, as far as I know. And in all the versions of the legend of King Monkey that I've ever read, they're going to the Western Heaven to fetch those books. -- Calle Dybedahl, UNIX Sysadmin qdtcall@esavionics.se http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:15:41 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Re: Where are people? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm based in Cambridge (England) for those in this neck of the woods. I used to visit Sheffield pretty frequently (my sister lived there). Is the Sheffield Space Centre on The Wicker still going strong? That was the shop that mailed me 'Avon: A Terrible Aspect' and a bunch of Horizon newsletters and hence was responsible for turning me into a B7 addict again! Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:43:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Rob Clother To: B7 mailing list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Sorry, I meant heroism in terms of the _values_ of a hero, not the > courage of one. Tarrant never lacked for courage, but he was a bully to > Vila. (Avon bullied Vila,too, but in a more friendly way, usually. And > Avon never claimed to have good values). Strip away Avon's rhetoric, and his attitude to Vila was very protective. They trusted each other deeply in their own way, which is why it came as such a shock to Vila when Avon nearly murdered him. In fact, if Avon really did any bullying, Tarrant was the object rather than Vila. Avon never missed an opportunity to show Tarrant up for a trigger-happy maniac, while delighting in his own intellectual superiority. In Blake's company, without Avon's persistent subtle put-downs, I agree that Tarrant would have been a very different character. As it was, Avon brought out the worst aspects of his personality, and it is much easier to dislike him for that than it is to recognise the contributions he made to the crew. Cheers, Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:22:55 GMT From: "Jane Elizabeth Macdonald" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L]Monkey Message-ID: <2B0A1241E9@sdk1.derby.ac.uk> Tom Forsyth wrote:- > Well, the only thing I know about Monkey is from the very silly (but > excellent) series they used to show over here (UK, 1984-ish). > P.S. I do hope somebody else knows what I'm on about - cultural milestones > like Monkey can't have missed _all_ the people on this list. I remember watching Monkey, so there are at least two of us. Cylan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:29:25 +1000 From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211222925.007c2930@wire.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sue said: >This is so good and so on the money I wish I'd said it. Heh heh... quick, grab a time machine, nip back a week then sue me for plagiarism. Narrelle "Loves 'em all" Harris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax "Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:37:26 +1000 From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210193726.007b2100@wire.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Iain said: >I sometimes find Paul's performances frustrating. Sometimes he shows nice >subtle touches, then a few minutes later he's chewing the scenery. This >latter behaviour seemed to get more pronounced as the series went on. > >He is often very good at bringing a lot out of the lines, in terms of >playing the subtext rather than the text, and that's part of what makes >Avon such an intriguing character. But in terms of acting skill, I would >rate both Michael and Gareth higher (and Jackie, come to that - she even >makes her scenes in "Animals" watchable). I have seen Paul on stage (In 'Trap for a Lonely Man'), though not Michael, and have probably seen more of Paul in tv roles than Michael too. The sense I get from what I *have* seen is that Michael may be a more *disciplined* actor, and Gareth I suspect will also come under this category. I think Paul is very talented and has done both very subtle and very hammy work. He strikes me as the kind of actor who really shines when he is working with a strong director and/or a strong cast/performer. On stage, actors feed off one another (and from the kind of guidance they get from a director) intensely. I have been fascinated watching plays sometimes to see how an actor can do a fairly pedestrian job with one cast member, and then a different person comes on and the actor *changes* - stands out more, is more convincing, more subtle, more involved, because of the person they are playing opposite. Or seen an actor in plays directed by different people - there can be such a difference in performance based on how much guidance/discipline has been involved. Other people out there have been involved in theatre - do your experiences tally with my own? Narrelle ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax "Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 02:16:27 -0500 (EST) From: adering@ziplink.net (Alex Dering) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] authors and such Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some old authors are coming up in conversation... I ran across the Doc Smith books (at least the first one) the other day at the bookstore at which I work. It had been reissued, with the "Doc" portion of his name removed (just E.E. Smith - I think he might even have had his given names spelled out). In either case, I just rolled my eyes because I tried to get through them once and just couldn't stand it. Similarly, L. Ron's books have a similar fate it seems on the shelf. Apparently, (I read this in the New York Times, so we'll have to take it as suspect) the Scientologists would go in, buy Hubbard's books in sufficient numbers to make the computer programs order additional copies. Then, the original copies would be returned. The store would then have a tremendous overload of books. Most of these would be stripped after a while (the cover is torn off and returned for credit, the remainder of the book is destroyed). Then the whole thing would start up again. By doing this a sufficient number of times, with a sufficient number of people, you would eventually arrive at the top of the NY Times best-seller list. The list only keeps track of how many copies are ordered, not how many are sold, and remain sold. As to Lord of The Rings, the first time I read it, I got almost to the end of the end of the last book. Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, with Precious tempting Sam, maybe thirty pages to the end, and I had to put it aside (school work, I was in my last semester as an undergraduate). When I got back to it, I had completely lost the thread of the story. I finally got around to rereading it about four months ago. Thank God I will never have to read it again. I found C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia much more entertaining. I don't think one should have to learn a whole new set of languages in order to follow a story, as one is forced to with Lord of the Rings. And, as an addendum, I read Avon: A Terrible Aspect, and I didn't think it was as bad as many people say. I won't say it was the next replacement for Dostoyevski, but, well, it had a very nice cover. Does anyone know where I can find copies of those books which are supposed to take place PGP? The ones which the authors didn't have permission for, and which I would just like to read so that I can see what the closest "canonical" version is? And just so you all know, it rained today in Manhattan and I didn't bring my umbrella. So I had a moist kind of day... And as to where to find Blake's 7 videos. Here in the US the Columbia House people (those of the 12 albums for a penny) have many Sci-Fi series available for home video (including Dr. Who, and Space: 1999, but not including Blake's 7.) Perhaps if enough of us call up, they'll organize it. I have about half of the Blake's 7 series on the BFS Video label. I found them at a discount bookstore in Somerville, Massachusetts, quite serendipitously, going for something like $4 a piece. I would have bought them all if they were offered, but only some of the titles were there. So now I prowl the video stores, tossing the bargain bins, hoping against hope to get the rest. A recent thread about the actors makes me wonder, does anyone have any details of the personal lives of the actors? I don't mean anything gruesome (i.e. Michael Keating: The secret life of a wife-swapping atheist) but just the ordinary little details. I'm trying to imagine Jacqueline Pearce married, sitting at the kitchen table, having toast and coffee with her spouse before they both start their days. Anything more substantial than my delusions? Alex ---------------------------------------- Life is short, art long, opportunity fleeting, experience treacherous, and judgement difficult. -- Hippocrates -- ---------------------------------------- website: http://www.ziplink.net/~adering ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:02:40 +1000 From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Blake and leadership Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980211230240.007ba9c0@wire.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Reading these posts about Blake's leadership, and Catharine's post saying: >He knew that his band of rebels was reluctant at best. If he did >not lead them, they wouldn't go at all, with the possible exception of >Cally. I was suddenly reminded of Tim's common lament. When, in a group of people, no-one knows what they want to do or where they want to go, Tim will make a suggestion. Since he's the only one with a positive idea for anything at all, everyone goes along. ANd then, if they don't like the destination, they bitch about how pushy he is and how much they hated his decision. Maybe this is Blake's problem. He's the only one prepared to make any decisions, and everyone says "Yeah, ok" and then bitch about it, but none of them are willing to make any kind of decision on their own. This is just a throwaway observation inspired by Catharine's comment. Does anyone else see any relevance in it? Narrelle ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax "Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:47:27 GMT0BST From: "Ruth Imeson" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Monkey Message-ID: <16860151DCD@uan1.library.nottingham.ac.uk> Cylan wrote: > > I remember watching Monkey, so there are at least two of us. > Make that 3 of us. Monkey was something of a cultural highlight in my family. For those who have never experienced this wonder, Bravo is reshowing the series (in the UK). Ruth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:35:52 GMT From: "Jane Elizabeth Macdonald" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Where are People? Message-ID: <13409C3F5F@sdk1.derby.ac.uk> >>Jenni asked asking about B7 fans living near Altringham. >>As a newcomer, I'd also be interested to know where people are based, with a >>view to meeting up at some future date. >>I think UK listees will be easier to meet up with. >>I am living and working in Sheffield. Anyone live nearby? >Jay posted >Hi, I'm a newcomer too, and also would like to know where people are based, > both in the US and UK. I currently live in northern California, but I'm > British and try to get back there as often as I can (I'm originally from > Bedfordshire). > > I've been a fan of B7 ever since it was first shown. My favourite is, of > course Avon. I'm also a newcomer. I live in Derby, England, and I started watching Blake's 7 when the original series 1st came out. My favorite character is is Avon too. Cylan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:50:03 -0000 From: "Jenni-Alison" To: Subject: Re: [B7L]Monkey Message-Id: <199802111253.NAA23224@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ruth wrote > > Cylan wrote: > > > > I remember watching Monkey, so there are at least two of us. > > > > Make that 3 of us. Monkey was something of a cultural highlight in my > family. > > For those who have never experienced this wonder, Bravo is reshowing > the series (in the UK). > > Ruth I remember it vaguely, but only Monkey himself, and the beginning credits and theme tune. Oh no, now it's in my head, and I'll sing it all day! Jenni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:59:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Narrelle Harris wrote: > Iain said: > >I sometimes find Paul's performances frustrating. Sometimes he shows nice > >subtle touches, then a few minutes later he's chewing the scenery. This > >latter behaviour seemed to get more pronounced as the series went on. > > > >He is often very good at bringing a lot out of the lines, in terms of > >playing the subtext rather than the text, and that's part of what makes > >Avon such an intriguing character. But in terms of acting skill, I would > >rate both Michael and Gareth higher (and Jackie, come to that - she even > >makes her scenes in "Animals" watchable). > > I have seen Paul on stage (In 'Trap for a Lonely Man'), though not Michael, > and have probably seen more of Paul in tv roles than Michael too. > > The sense I get from what I *have* seen is that Michael may be a more > *disciplined* actor, and Gareth I suspect will also come under this category. > > I think Paul is very talented and has done both very subtle and very hammy > work. He strikes me as the kind of actor who really shines when he is > working with a strong director and/or a strong cast/performer. On stage, > actors feed off one another (and from the kind of guidance they get from a > director) intensely. > > I have been fascinated watching plays sometimes to see how an actor can do > a fairly pedestrian job with one cast member, and then a different person > comes on and the actor *changes* - stands out more, is more convincing, > more subtle, more involved, because of the person they are playing > opposite. Or seen an actor in plays directed by different people - there > can be such a difference in performance based on how much > guidance/discipline has been involved. > > Other people out there have been involved in theatre - do your experiences > tally with my own? Oh yes. Playing opposite a good actor bring your own performance up a gear, and if the two actors can get into a positive-feedback loop you can get two really strong performances. The off-stage relationship between the actors is also a factor: if you get on well with someone, you can take bigger risks with them on stage - and also, you are likely to be on each other's wavelength, and respond well to what the other person does. Gareth and Paul are a case in point. The director is also crucial. "The Inside Story" tells of a very hostile relationship between Brian Croucher and George Spenton-Foster, and it really shows on screen. I think I'm in a minority in that I like Croucher's Travis, but his portrayal really is bad in the Spenton-Foster episodes, I think because the actor and director were at loggerheads. The one thing you haven't touched on is rehearsal. Often you reach a stage in the rehearsal process where everyone knows what they're doing, what they're saying and it seems to reach a plateau where continued rehearsals don't add much. But then, by going through it again and again, the cast as a whole suddenly jumps up to a whole new level, the characterisations become more subtle, the relationships fit together more naturally, and basically it just gets better. Rehearsal schedules in B7 were notoriously short-to-non-existant, and some of the coarseness one sometimes sees in the acting would have been smoothed out by more rehearsal. You can see this especially in Paul (but in the others too). The delivery and reaction portrays complex and interesting characterisation, but it's sometimes just a bit too mannered, too "actory", and you get the feeling that it hadn't been rehearsed enough for all the bits to fit smoothly into place. Still, at least all the complexities are there, which is much more interesting than a smooth and polished portrayal of bland nothingness. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +0000 From: Jill Beach To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Different Generations Message-ID: <34E1A48E.2BBB@mcmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have been a fan of Blakes 7 since the first episodes, when it was shown on sky tv my children became big fans,now it is on again on Sunday morning and my grandson thinks it is great.What is it about this series that it can hold the interest of three generations. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:37:01 -0700 From: Patricia Roberts To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (IPM Return requested) (Receipt notification requested) Subject: Re: [B7L] The Cult Files Message-id: <0677D34E1B78CB9A*/c=us/admd=telemail/prmd=lmco/o=ems/ou=ccmail/s=Roberts/g=Patricia/@MHS> Content-return: Allowed Content-identifier: 0677D34E1B78CB9A Hi, I too just received my copy of The Cult Files. I ordered via CDnow, an on-line outlet for CDs, videos, etc. They are an excellent source and very inexpensive. I always pay by check as I don't want to give out any credit cards over the Internet. I've ordered many videos from them, everything is discounted. So checkout CDnow.com and see for yourself. Pat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:53:55 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake's popular support Message-ID: <199802111453.JAA24862@yfn.ysu.edu> Pat Fenech wrote: >Particularly interesting, at least for me, is the question of whether or not >he had any popular support for what he was doing. And so I thought to have a >word, or several, about it :) as thinking about it I seem to recall there >being some evidence within the series that he did. And to test my memory I >went looking to see what is to be found... and discovered quite a bit. Pat, a thousand thanks for such a detailed and factual report. I really appreciate the time and thought that went into this. The canonical references combined with your summaries provide all the documentation that a fan could ask for. >This suggests strongly that there was popular interest in >Blake and his opposition to the Federation and further that the interest was >positive and large enough to be of some considerable worry to the >Administration. Also interesting are the lengths they are all prepared to go >to stop Blake. Servalan seems willing to provide Travis with whatever he >feels he needs to 'seek-locate-destroy' Blake and as the series progressed >we saw that she continued to do so. We also saw them go to considerable trouble to eradicate and repress other rebellious hotspots: development of the Avalon android, plan to bring down Kasabi's group, the solium bomb to keep the population of Albian in line. And after Blake disappeared, rebellion continued to be a problem: the attempted coup in RUMOURS, development and employment of Pylene 50 to subdue rebellious planets. >It seems to me, though I may be misinterpreting, that some of the >discussion anyway seems to be heading towards correlating whether Blake was >justified in what he did with evidence of popular support. I don't know that >I would necessarily agree that one is *the* justification for the other. That's a good point. There have been strong, popular leaders whose actions can't be considered moral. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:23:21 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Rob Clother CC: B7 mailing list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <34E1C268.4986@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Strip away Avon's rhetoric, and his attitude to Vila was very protective. > They trusted each other deeply in their own way, which is why it came as > such a shock to Vila when Avon nearly murdered him. In fact, if Avon > really did any bullying, Tarrant was the object rather than Vila. Avon > never missed an opportunity to show Tarrant up for a trigger-happy maniac, > while delighting in his own intellectual superiority. In Blake's company, > without Avon's persistent subtle put-downs, I agree that Tarrant would > have been a very different character. As it was, Avon brought out the > worst aspects of his personality, and it is much easier to dislike him for > that than it is to recognise the contributions he made to the crew. > > Cheers, > Rob Yes, I agree that the outer layer of antagonism on the Avon/Vila relationship was a sham. Like two school boys who feel like it's more manly to squabble. The bullying I refer to is things like, once, when Vila had just put-down Avon, Avon walked by him, making a point of squeezing so close, Vila has to kind of move aside. Alpha male behavior, really. Trouble is Avon and Tarrant are both Alphas, and cannot tolerate each other. Avon's showing up of Tarrant is something Tarrant keeps pushing him to do. "I'm younger and I'm faster." If Kerr doesn't keep a strong hand with Tarrant, goodness knows what the cocky boy will do. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:18:06 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as god Message-ID: <199802111518.KAA26171@yfn.ysu.edu> Nicola quotes Tom (I'm pretty sure) then adds a warning: >>he's more Pigsy, really. Monkey definately reminds me of Tarrant - bold, >>brashful and totally out of his depth half the time. >Quick, hide! I hear the Tarrant Nostra have spies everywhere! :-) It's true that the Tarrant Nostra is everywhere. And we'd bring Tom to task for his blatant lack of respect except we know he gets off on being whupped. ;-) But seriously, the "totally out of his depth half the time" is quite an exaggeration. If folks would like to get particular, rather than make generalizations, I know I can come up with more than three examples of Tarrant swimming prettily for every example of him sinking like a stone. And I could also provide many examples of when other members of the crew were having trouble keeping their heads above water. When it comes down to canon and facts, the derogatory images of Tarrant as incompetent, unheroic, etc. simply don't hold up. He made no more mistakes than any of the others. I think it always boils down to Avon's astute comment that Tarrant is "young, brave, and handsome" and some people simply find that annoying. Carol McCoy --KAA25704.887209834/yfn.ysu.edu-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:43:06 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <199802111543.KAA27063@yfn.ysu.edu> Avona wrote: >Sorry, I meant heroism in terms of the _values_ of a hero, not the >courage of one. Tarrant never lacked for courage, but he was a bully to >Vila. (Avon bullied Vila,too, but in a more friendly way, usually. And >Avon never claimed to have good values). The "more friendly way" is a rather subjective call. I have to agree with Lorna that Tarrant's calling Vila to task was usually more justified (Vila was a member of the crew and should have been carrying his share of the work/danger load) than some of Avon's bullying. The Tarrant-bullying of Vila that is most often cited is "City at the Edge of the World." Tarrant wasn't just having a kick-Vila moment. He was trying to get weaponary crystals that would benefit all of them. Compare that to when Avon kicked or kneed Vila in "Hostage." The only motivation was pure annoyance. As Lorna said, everyone mistreated Vila at times. >And as far as manipulating people goes, once again, Avon was >manipulative, yes, but he let it be knnown he was manipulative. Now let me see if I understand this correctly. Avon was open and honest about being manipulative so it was more acceptable than say when Blake was subtly manipulative. And you also seemed to imply that Tarrant's open heroics weren't as admirable as Avon's heroics because Avon never claimed to be hero. Am I the only one who sees a double standard here? Whichever way Avon leans is the right way. >"Beyond Good and Evil"... he rejects the morals that society conforms >to, but has his own moral code that is more personally meanful. He >cannot be a hypocrit, because he lives by self-defined values with >self-defined limits. Blake and Tarrant are modelled on traditional >heores, and don't always meet the pre-set standards. Once again, is >anyone familiar enough with Nietzche's writings to discuss this? I didn't see that either Blake or Tarrant confirmed to the morals of society. You have to remember that their society isn't our society. Tarrant is a sore thumb hero in the Federation universe. He has his own set of moral values and won't be bullied or mocked into changing them. His world is a horrible place where nastiness abounds, but he continually behaves as if that weren't the case. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:50:24 +0000 ("GMT) From: Rob Clother To: B7 mailing list Subject: [B7L] Tarrant Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I think it always boils down to Avon's astute comment that Tarrant > is "young, brave, and handsome" and some people simply find that > annoying. He's also got all the tact and sensitivity of a brick through your front window (telling you your mother has died). Which is another thing people find annoying. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:54:50 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake and leadership Message-ID: <199802111554.KAA27513@yfn.ysu.edu> Narrelle wrote: >I was suddenly reminded of Tim's common lament. When, in a group of >people, no-one knows what they want to do or where they want to go, Tim >will make a suggestion. Since he's the only one with a positive idea for >anything at all, everyone goes along. ANd then, if they don't like the >destination, they bitch about how pushy he is and how much they hated his >decision. That very much describes how I see "City at the Edge of the World." Tarrant seems to be the only one making an effort to get the crystals. "the only positive idea" But after the fact, Avon and Cally complain about how he handled the matter. >This is just a throwaway observation inspired by Catharine's comment. Does >anyone else see any relevance in it? I see relevance. I'm not familiar enough with 1st-2nd season to relate it to criticisms of Blake, but I've seen it happen in real life and I've seen it happen in third season. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:50:48 EST From: MLytle@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Howdy..Another Houston TX Blake fan here Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >>Except my local PBS station, who have quit showing both B7 and Dr. Who >AND >>Red Dwarf! >Well, in a way you can count yourself lucky, because none of those has ever >run (to my knowledge) in this state. And probably never will, either. No, >we mostly get endless repeats of Allo, Allo and Are You Being Served.>> We have the same problem here in Michigan. In fact, when I first found this newsgroup, I hadn't seen a B7 episode in almost 10 years!! (Pause here for assorted sympathetic exclamations) The tapes that I had recorded before we moved disappeared in transit. Anyway, I have made a few purchases at Borders since, and am completely enjoying B7 again. Maggie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:08:18 -0800 From: SKAFLOC@ix.netcom.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se CC: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Subject: unsubsrcibe Message-ID: <34E1CCF1.6966@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubsrcibe PLEEEEEZZE!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:08:22 -0800 From: SKAFLOC@ix.netcom.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se CC: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Subject: Remove Message-ID: <34E1CCF4.143F@ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Remove PLEEEEEZZE!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:52:19 -0800 (PST) From: Luxueil To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've read thru this thread, and still, in response to the thread subject header, I do not believe we ever see Tarrant as 'selfish'. When he first boarded the Liberator, he was alone, and the cutthroats that subsequently boarded were not people he could respect. Still, his activities there were to survive; when he finds allies, he immediately works with them against the 'baddies', and then throws his lot in with them. I can interpret his voluntary subordination to Avon almost as relief that he can do what he does best - pilot the ship - and not have to feel totally responsible for the crew (altho he tends to). Tarrant is unusual, in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team. Nicole -------------------------------------------------------- Three candles shine from a noble heart: Justice with mercy, truth with compassion, excellence with humility ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:03:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Where are people? Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Una McCormack wrote: > I'm based in Cambridge (England) for those in this neck of the woods. So am I! Any other Cambridge bods around here? (Come on, there must be, this town is full of sad geeks, sorry, cultured and technically literate intellectuals.) Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:16:59 +0000 ("GMT) From: Rob Clother To: B7 mailing list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I've read thru this thread, and still, in response to the thread subject > header, I do not believe we ever see Tarrant as 'selfish'. Agreed. Heroic or selfish is not a question with any teeth: Tarrant is unquestionably the former. > Tarrant is unusual, in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team. But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team. Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader, that's all. Rob PS And, of course, Blake was more astute than the two of them put together. As a leader, that is. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:24:24 -0000 From: "Heather Smith" To: "Blake's 7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol wrote: > City at the Edge of the World: Avon wants to leave when it is > growing dark. Tarrant argues they should stay and find Vila. Um, and at the beginning of the episode he threatens to throw Vila off the ship, saying that 'you're no use to me'. not exactly heroic behaviour. Maybe he was just feeling guilty when he wants to look for Vila. Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith 'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish' -The fourth Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:17:08 -0000 From: "Heather Smith" To: "Blake's 7" Subject: Re: [B7L]Monkey Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At least five of us, I used to be on the Monkey mailing list! Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith 'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish' -The fourth Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:33:01 -0000 From: "Heather Smith" To: "Blake's 7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Calle wrote: > Tripitaka is the name of the closest thing Buddhism has to holy > books, as far as I know. And in all the versions of the legend of King > Monkey that I've ever read, they're going to the Western Heaven to > fetch those books. Yes, but in the TV series Tripitaka is a young priest, supposed to be the one human who was truly holy. And yes, it is highly confusing that he was a man, but played be a female actress. The English company doing the dub into English could have made matters clearer by using a man's voice for the character, but they chose to use a very feminine female voice. Does anybody know quite *why* a woman was used to play the part? Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith 'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish' -The fourth Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:27:58 +1000 From: Tim Richards & Narrelle Harris To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's manipulativeness Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210192758.007b1c90@wire.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sue said: >This is so good and so on the money I wish I'd said it. Heh heh... quick, grab a time machine, nip back a week then sue me for plagiarism. Narrelle "Loves 'em all" Harris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Tim Richards and Narrelle Harris parallax@wire.net.au http://www.wire.net.au/~parallax "Look, he's winding up the watch of his wit; by and by it will strike." - Shakespeare ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:56:28 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <199802111756.MAA02196@yfn.ysu.edu> Heather wrote: >Carol wrote: > >> City at the Edge of the World: Avon wants to leave when it is >> growing dark. Tarrant argues they should stay and find Vila. > >Um, and at the beginning of the episode he threatens to throw Vila off the >ship, saying that 'you're no use to me'. not exactly heroic behaviour. >Maybe he was just feeling guilty when he wants to look for Vila. He is feeling guilty. And more power to him for regretting his mistakes and wanting to atone for them. How maybe people accept responsibility for their mistakes? Someone puts a hand in an operating lawn mower, gets it chopped off and sues the manu- facturer for failing to warn him that the moving blades might be dangerous... Being able to admit when you are wrong is heroic behavior in my book. But surely you realize that it's not just guilt that prompts Tarrant to want to stay and wait for/find Vila. Even if he had had nothing to do with Vila's trouble, he would argue the same position. As he does when any of shipmates need his loyalty and support in other episodes. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:13:46 GMT From: "Jane Elizabeth Macdonald" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] authors Message-ID: <2BE1673E4B@sdk1.derby.ac.uk> Alex said > As to Lord of The Rings, the first time I read it, I got almost to the end > of the end of the last book. Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, with Precious tempting > Sam, maybe thirty pages to the end, and I had to put it aside (school work, > I was in my last semester as an undergraduate). When I got back to it, I > had completely lost the thread of the story. I finally got around to > rereading it about four months ago. Thank God I will never have to read it > again. I don't think one should have to learn a whole new set of languages in order > to follow a story, as one is forced to with Lord of the Rings. How can you say such a thing? Lord of the Rings is one of the best books I have ever read. I couldn't put it down. Cylan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:09:36 -0800 (PST) From: Luxueil To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se cc: B7 mailing list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Rob Clother wrote: > > Tarrant is unusual, in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team. > But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team. > Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader, > that's all. I would argue that we actually never see Tarrant as 'leader' - sometimes as a concerned member of a virtually self-managed team, where each member can argue their own points (if they have any), but usually default to Avon. I think, as I stated, that what Tarrant *wants* to do is fly the ship. He's got the training, he knows how, and might lack experience in the leadership area, but I don't think he wants to lead the crew any more than Avon does. Nicole -------------------------------------------------------- Three candles shine from a noble heart: Justice with mercy, truth with compassion, excellence with humility ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:26:38 GMT From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-Id: <3839.9802111826@bsauasb.nerc-bas.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Md5: ChrIbKLirVANup/LOi9qGw== > From jlv@halcyon.com Wed Feb 11 18:17:55 1998 > > On Wed, 11 Feb 1998, Rob Clother wrote: > > > Tarrant is unusual, in that he actually *wants* to be a part of a team. > > But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team. > > Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader, > > that's all. > "Astute leader" are not the words that spring to my mind in connection with Avon. > I would argue that we actually never see Tarrant as 'leader' - sometimes > as a concerned member of a virtually self-managed team, where each member > can argue their own points (if they have any), but usually default to > Avon. > > I think, as I stated, that what Tarrant *wants* to do is fly the ship. > He's got the training, he knows how, and might lack experience in the > leadership area, but I don't think he wants to lead the crew any more than > Avon does. I think he wants to lead the crew in exactly the same sense that Avon does. Neither of them are particularly good leaders, and neither of them has any grand plan for the team. However, they both want to be top dog for egotistical reasons. "Sarcophagus" illustrates this. Avon had much the same motivation when Blake was around - the difference being Blakes consummate skill in manipulation/leadership (take your pick), which meant he always found himself following. Iain -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #42 *************************************