From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 21 14:54:13 1996 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 20:18:22 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #72 tariqas-digest Thursday, 18 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 072 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 06:17:10 -0700 Subject: Re: Poetry (pls ignore) maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: [...] > There are some very very good poetry in tariqas-list and it depend on the > readers' experience. And to put the word "Poetry" in the subject line, in my > opinion, is to discriminate against members who submit poems. Imposing this > condition will made them 2nd class citizen of tariqas-list. I also see it, > "poetry" being classified as 2nd-class materials for the tariqas forum. > > salam > maarof Point well made, maarof... Since Tariqas is already perfect, let's leave it as it is... Okay? tanzen ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:44:38 -0500 Subject: Poetry? Asarifullah! My Friends, While from time to time I get some responses speaking of an appreciation for my bad attempts at poetry both on this and other lists I need to thank everyone for their indulgence. As I began my project of attempting to write a sketch of each of the 99 Beautiful Names in poetry for those who were not around I asked permission of the group to indulge me by sharing my work in progress. The result has been one of lending the motivation almost as an obligation to completion. The generosity of the group as a whole has been quite wonderful. I am well aware that not everyone reads my poetry. I also recognize that there is always a sense of annoyance at having to delete an unread message, and that during the process while one has to indulge in the appropriateness of the deletion on a psychological basis. I also realize that for some more conservation Moslems both the notion of music as well as poetry is viewed as a move away from rather then toward the truth. For those Moslems in particular I am sensitive. I am sensitive to you no matter who you are because I recognize that singleness of mind and purpose is without question the discipline which it takes to arrive at the ultimate destination. To summarize the point I am attempting to make is first if I have caused anyone a disturbance of some sort or another on this list, and I being one who is just attempting to be human, I know I have I apologize. Further I want to thank you for the generosity of your indulgence and acknowledge that your ears and your listening even if that listening takes on the choice called deletion has allowed me to take on a disciplined task which is close to being at completion. Thank you my Brother and Sisters for putting up with one who struggles on this path as much as he loves it. Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: gmtn@mail.comet.net (Green Mountain School) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 09:56:48 -0500 Subject: test as-salaamu 'alaykum test wa salaam A. N. Durkee Green Mountain ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:02:13 -0700 Subject: Re: savage music and poetry Bismillah ar-Rahman ir-Rahim Thomas McElwain wrote: > > Assalamu alaykum rahmatullahi "rahmatullahi" cosmic womb club? "rahmat", womb? > I beg the pardon of all for implying limitations on Sufi vehicles. Or any vehicle? The answer is "plastics"... no, no, just jokin'; the answer is all in All? All in One? What is the answer? "Before we rayed into existance... " we knew! Can we remember now? Okay, let's do Zikr! [...] > Since music has always raised questions, and recently the > time-honored vehicle of Sufi poetry has been questioned as well, I submit > to the judgment of authority. Now to find THAT authority! > Let's investigate something fresh... Fresh, stale, let's investigate! > How about ethnic slurring... Okay, I did the investigation and found because of pre-conditioning, learning, there is some. > Anyone want to begin? I end... > Ah, Tanzen, my dearest, what does slim taste like? Slim is of The Beloved, just as is slime and heavy. So they all taste heavenly. But when slime is of just the earth, then the taste is of The Beloved's perspiration. When slim is of the earth we have only lean without juices flowing down the chin. Geesh, this IS hard work... but willingly is it chosen. > Jack Sprat could eat no fat, > His wife could eat no lean, > And so betwixt the two of them > They licked the platter clean. I like it, I like it... another poem, will ya? Tell us about the birds and their great circles. Will ya? Please. > When shall I learn that there is room for All in One? What about "all in All"? "one in All"? "all in One"? Does "all in one" fly? When, Oh when will I learn... > I God take on a form, not for heresy, but to be able to take the universe > in my hand and watch it spin like a new penny. I God, furthermore, take the universe in hand and become conscious of Self through self of universe. Ali, thanks for being, tanzen Alhamdu'lillah ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 20:58:13 +0700 Subject: Re: Poetry "class" >There are some very very good poetry in tariqas-list and it depend on the >readers' experience. And to put the word "Poetry" in the subject line, in my >opinion, is to discriminate against members who submit poems. Imposing this >condition will made them 2nd class citizen of tariqas-list. I also see it, >"poetry" being classified as 2nd-class materials for the tariqas forum. > > >salam >maarof > - --The subject line was invented for a purpose. Let's use it. - --My dear Maarof, you are "believing" the complaints. Who says that "poetry" will indicate second-class status? If the poetry catches on, perhaps some people will seek ONLY those messages that say "poetry"? That would be first-class. Show some confidence in the art, brother! martin ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 21:21:40 +0700 Subject: Levels Fellow seekers: Can someone clarify the various levels or degrees of Sufism? I read about the following scale in a Sufi book some years ago: Elementary Level: God-intoxicated Second Level: able to teach those who want to learn Third Level: able to teach those who don't want to learn Highest Level: able to guide the souls of the dying Do any sisters and/or brothers: 1. Have experience of more than one of these degrees? 2. Have any references or further details about these degrees? martin ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 07:40:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Riddle from Chief Thomas McElwain wrote: > > Assalaamu 'Alaykum > Writing is riddles cannot be avoided so here is the answer to the riddle > from the Chief: > > As I was going to St. Ives > I met a man with seven wives > Every wife had seven sacks > Every sack had seven cats > Every cat had seven kits > Kits, cats, sacks and wives > How many were going to St. Ives? One. > What am I? An aspect of The Universe. > If I told you, you wouldn't believe it. Pray, tell me. > Sincerely, > Guess who. The One who knows. > P.S. Love you, Tanzen. Love you, Ali. ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:47:48 -0400 Subject: Re: Poetry (pls ignore) >>Perhaps we could agree on an adab of using the word "Poetry" in the subject >>line so that those who find it distasteful can just delete without reading. >There are some very very good poetry in tariqas-list and it depend on the yes... and there's some terribly bad poetry, and there's /good/ stuff and /bad/ stuff and /right/ stuff and /wrong/ stuff... let's label everything... let's have a category for arrogance, one for bullshit, one for really rude posts, one for those who are "enlightened" and one for those who wallow in the mud... one for black people, one for white.... one for English speakers, one for those who can't speak at all... and another one for those who are potentially over-sensitive, and let's tear our lives apart and post only to our "friends"... let's hide and cover anything real so that we don't offend another who is working so hard on being perfect... just label me woodsong and delete everything i say... because it's all meaningless anyway... but i love you. ------------------------------ From: Thomas McElwain Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 18:25:32 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: re: poetry (pls ignore) Label Woodsong I'd say you're beautiful when you're mad, but I would sound like a MCP. Anyway, you're beautiful with or without labels. Love, Ali Haydar ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:30:38 -0700 Subject: Re: Riddle from Chief MB Steve Phillips wrote: > > frank gaude wrote: > > > Hello, folks! > > > > Chief Morning Bear posed a > > riddle; any takers? > > My guess is that it's almost all of ALL! > (two out of three anyway, letter 'l') > > Another one > got any idea what the following series refers to: > > ottffss... > > steve ------------------------------ From: Zaineb Istrabadi Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:46:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 5-line poem by Annemarie Schimmel Assalamu alaykum, friends. Herewith a poem by A. Schimmel from her collection "Nightingales Under the Snow." Best, Zaineb **************************** A dervish stretched out his hand with his beggar's bowl. But the bowl was a bleeding heart. ------------------------------ From: CWoodsong@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 11:48:54 -0400 Subject: Re: poetry (pls ignore) In a message dated 96-07-18 11:32:40 EDT, you write: >I'd say you're beautiful when you're mad, but I would sound like a MCP. hmm... but /you/ are beautiful when you're mad! now, what does that make me? ;) love, nobody ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 08:53:20 -0700 Subject: Re: Poetry (pls ignore) CWoodsong@aol.com wrote: [...] > just label me woodsong and delete everything i say... because it's all > meaningless anyway... but i love you. not but, but "therefore". Therefore we love you! Peace, tanzen ------------------------------ From: Oudghiri Houria Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 12:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: rahman [was Re: Bismillah > From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Tue Jul 16 23:24:04 1996 > X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to tariqas-approval using -f > From: Jinavamsa@aol.com > Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:19:04 -0400 > To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Subject: rahman [was Re: Bismillah > Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Content-Length: 2092 > > > tariqas@europe.std.com > > > yes, Tanzen. you reply to an earlier posting; I add something below. > > In a message dated 96-07-16 15:16:26 EDT, you write: > >> > >> This comes from the translation of Quran by Andre Chouraki who is a jew. > >> His translation is the first one to give such a meaning to these two > words: > >> Rahman and > >> Houria > > I don't think so. just earlier today I was reading through a book of rather > old texts, which had, as far as I can tell, no Jewish translator involved. (I > assume you are suggesting that the translation being done by a Jew if that's a significant difference> is therefore suspect.) No, this was not my intention. I just give it just as an additional information. I don't know of any other Quran translation (by muslims or not) which gives this meaning to rahman and rahim. > The text is entitled _A Manual of .Hadith_ and includes quotations from some > rather early works. The one that's relevant here is from the .Hadith Bukhari > (precise location: B. 78: 13, with added quotations from B. 11: 7). this > hadith says: > Abu Hurairah reported, The Prophet, pbAuh, said: > Ra.him is an offshooot of Ra.hmaan; so Allah said, Whoever makes his ties > close with thee I will make My ties close with him, and whoever severs his > ties with thee I will sever My ties with him" > The explanation of this is: > The word ra.him means the womb, hence, relationship by the female side; but > it also carries the wider significance of relationship in general; and > Ra.hmaan means the God of mercy or the Beneficent God. The hadith signifies > that relationship is deeply connected with mercy in its very nature. So > whoever makes close ties of relationship by kindness to relatives, God is > kind to him, and whoever severs the ties of relationship by ill-treatment > towards relatives, God is displeased with him, One must be kind to relatives > though they be non-Muslims (B. 11: 7). > As we are all relatives, being of one human family, this might suggest that > kindness is a good attitude to carry always. > what say you? > I agree. Houria. > in peace, > Jinavamsa > > > > > > > >Yes, but we are still left with the triliteral root word meanings of Rahman > >and > >Rahim, i.e., RHM, which equates to "womb"... can we ignore Abjad? Is not > womb > >in > >Arabic the word "rahmat"? > > > >Peace and love, > > > >tanzen > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 10:07:23 +0100 Subject: Why I write poetry... If I wrote poetry thinking it had to be good or bad, I wouldn't write at all. I write Poetry because Poetry writes me. If I stutter, it doesn't matter, its just so...The definition of Laconic, means someone who says a lot in a few words. Poems do that for me. I don't write to be published or noticed. I just write because it is what moves me this way or that. In my opinion there is no such thing as a bad poem, as it only one way of conversing. Love Kaffea Lalla. ------------------------------ From: Thomas McElwain Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:55:13 +0300 (EET DST) Subject: levels Dear Martin, Maybe I shouldn't answer, because I have never heard of those levels. This is my first contact with Sufis which includes Westerners, and I find a lot that is different from what I have heard in Turkey and North Africa. BTW, in my years of teaching experience I had more or less come to the conclusion that you can never teach anybody anything. Maybe that says more about my teaching ability that reality. I suspect what I have to say about levels is old hat. Bektashis talk about three levels, the gate of shari'a (Islamic law, earth), tariqa (the way, water) ma'rifa (awareness, fire), haqiqa (reality, air). These are emphasized in the only extant writing we have of Hajji Bektash himself. The question of levels brings to mind the arc of descent and arc of ascent with their forty degrees. There are ten practices with each level, corresponding to these degrees. The mursheed chooses among these for the individual needs of each person. But I suppose you know all that, it can't be very different in the other orders, although I'm not a scholar on such matters, I don't know. My own mursheed hardly talks about anything by haqiqa... Ali Haydar ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 16:58:00 -0400 Subject: Chouraqui and Bukhari [was Re: rahman [was Re: Bismillah hello Houria and all, thank you for replying to my questions. It is a moment of happiness to see your agreement that we are all human brethren. I was reminded on re-reading mention of Andre Chouraqui that his name was somewhat familiar to me. Looking through some books I have here, I found two books here with his name: one in the French series Que sais-je? (Presses Universitaires de France or PUF) that was by him (no. 750 in that series), entitled Histoire du Judaisme. It lists some of his other publications... many. It appears that he published his first book in 1948.... The other is a large translation from the Arabic of The Duties of the Heart (by Ibn Paquda, which also had a preface by Jacques Maritain) [aka Rabbi Bahya ibn Paquda, 11th century C.E.] Two other books of his that caught my attention were his Lettre a un ami arabe (Letter to an Arab Friend) and Lettre a un ami chretien (Letter to a Christian Friend), both from the early 1970s. I see he grew up in Ain-Temouchent, in Algeria, and survived a severe attack of polio as a boy .... Also, re the .Hadith Bukhari, I suppose that that predates Chouraqui by several hundred years. yes? in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-07-18 12:26:36 EDT, you write: >Subj: Re: rahman [was Re: Bismillah >Date: 96-07-18 12:26:36 EDT >From: oudghiri@macs.EE.McGill.CA (Oudghiri Houria) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > > >> From tariqas-approval@europe.std.com Tue Jul 16 23:24:04 1996 >> X-Authentication-Warning: europe.std.com: daemon set sender to >tariqas-approval using -f >> From: Jinavamsa@aol.com >> Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 23:19:04 -0400 >> To: tariqas@europe.std.com >> Subject: rahman [was Re: Bismillah >> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >> Reply-To: tariqas@europe.std.com >> Content-Length: 2092 >> >> >> tariqas@europe.std.com >> >> >> yes, Tanzen. you reply to an earlier posting; I add something below. >> >> In a message dated 96-07-16 15:16:26 EDT, you write: >> >> >> >> This comes from the translation of Quran by Andre Chouraki who is a jew. > >> >> His translation is the first one to give such a meaning to these two >> words: >> >> Rahman and >> >> Houria >> >> I don't think so. just earlier today I was reading through a book of rather >> old texts, which had, as far as I can tell, no Jewish translator involved. >(I >> assume you are suggesting that the translation being done by a Jew > if that's a significant difference> is therefore suspect.) > >No, this was not my intention. I just give it just as an additional >information. >I don't know of any other Quran translation (by muslims or not) which gives >this meaning to rahman and rahim. > >> The text is entitled _A Manual of .Hadith_ and includes quotations from >some >> rather early works. The one that's relevant here is from the .Hadith >Bukhari >> (precise location: B. 78: 13, with added quotations from B. 11: 7). this >> hadith says: >> Abu Hurairah reported, The Prophet, pbAuh, said: >> Ra.him is an offshooot of Ra.hmaan; so Allah said, Whoever makes his ties >> close with thee I will make My ties close with him, and whoever severs his >> ties with thee I will sever My ties with him" >> The explanation of this is: >> The word ra.him means the womb, hence, relationship by the female side; but >> it also carries the wider significance of relationship in general; and >> Ra.hmaan means the God of mercy or the Beneficent God. The hadith signifies >> that relationship is deeply connected with mercy in its very nature. So >> whoever makes close ties of relationship by kindness to relatives, God is >> kind to him, and whoever severs the ties of relationship by ill-treatment >> towards relatives, God is displeased with him, One must be kind to >relatives >> though they be non-Muslims (B. 11: 7). >> As we are all relatives, being of one human family, this might suggest that >> kindness is a good attitude to carry always. >> what say you? >> >I agree. > >Houria. >> in peace, >> Jinavamsa >> >> >> >> >> > >> >Yes, but we are still left with the triliteral root word meanings of >Rahman >> >and >> >Rahim, i.e., RHM, which equates to "womb"... can we ignore Abjad? Is not >> womb >> >in >> >Arabic the word "rahmat"? >> > >> >Peace and love, >> > >> >tanzen >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 05:52:42 +0800 Subject: Re: Poetry "class" >--The subject line was invented for a purpose. Let's use it. > >--My dear Maarof, you are "believing" the complaints. Who says that >"poetry" will indicate second-class status? If the poetry catches on, >perhaps some people will seek ONLY those messages that say "poetry"? >That would be first-class. Show some confidence in the art, brother! > >martin > I wrote 2nd-class? I'm sorry ... I don't mean to offend anyone. I feel sad when I see a friend (we are all friends here) has to indicate the "poem" title in the subject area. It reminds me of a group of people had to wear yellow arm-band during WW2. Let's forget the subject, and each of start writing peotry or poetry (whatever it is called). salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:00:35 +0700 Subject: Re: Riddle from Chief MB >> got any idea what the following series refers to: >> >> ottffss... >> >> steve > Got any idea what the following series refers to: 1 1 2 3 5 8 13 21 ... mas ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:08:14 +0700 Subject: Re: Poetry "class" >I wrote 2nd-class? I'm sorry ... I don't mean to offend anyone. - --Yes, you wrote it. No, you didn't offend anyone (as far as I know). - --Recall my earlier post about "experience of new medium". We all have a tendency to write quick responses, forgetting them later. Also, the quick answer sometimes is unrefined, and the quick reading sometimes is over-sensitive. It's a new medium. Nothing to be sorry about. I feel >sad when I see a friend (we are all friends here) has to indicate >the "poem" title in the subject area. It reminds me of a group of >people had to wear yellow arm-band during WW2. - --Some of those people now proudly wear a star of David hanging around their neck as jewelry. Is that not a transformation of the "negative" aspect of labels? martin ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #72 ****************************